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Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

blog.duolingo.com

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Re: Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

#11

Post by hrnnnnnn »

awelxtr wrote: post #4
hrnnnnnn wrote: post #2

"I have been learning Spanish for over three years now ... However, I really struggle with understanding spoken Spanish." In this person's case, it could be that they've spent three years on duolingo instead of practicing listening to native Spanish speakers. I've been learning my target language for two years and have no difficulty understanding it when spoken. Over that time I have listened to hundreds of hours of…

It doesn't matter their method of study, the question is legit nonetheless. Spoken language is harder to learn.

I think it probably depends on how far the writing system is from your own. Imagine you were coming from the English alphabet and learning Japanese. You put in the same number of learning hours, but in one scenario you only learn the written language, and in the other scenario only the spoken.

I think you'd probably learn more from the spoken language. Spoken language is higher bandwidth. Tone of voice, melody and rhythm can convey a lot of extra information with the same words. Plus if you're getting the spoken language in real life or from video, there's probably a bunch of extra context that makes it easier to understand. Even better, if you're talking to someone willing to help you learn, they will simplify their speech and start using gestures to help you understand.

I can accept that, as in the article, for someone who's spent all their time on written language spoken language will seem harder. I've split my time equally between the two and neither seems "harder" than the other. For what it's worth, my target language also uses the latin alphabet.

Re: Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

#12

Post by magicalhippo »

awelxtr wrote: post #10
MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? I have studied languages at school and using apps and never really achieved any fluency or understanding of spoken or written language. I lived in Spain for a bit over 3 months when I was a young man and became fluent in spoken Spanish. To the point I started thinking in Spanish but never noticed when that happened. So the method of learning really does seem to matter, at least for me.

So you spent 16*90 = ~1440h practicing spoken Spanish. I do believe that if you spent the same amount of time but focused on written Spanish you would acquire a richer vocabulary.

Something happens when you are immersed in it.

English is my second language. We started learning it in school when I was 10. My first trip to England, and my first serious use of English, was when I was 16. I went to a summer youth camp of sorts, and there were no one I could communicate with using my primary language.

The first day was rough, I had trouble understanding the English dialects and making myself understood. It got gradually better.

On the fifth day I had a 30 minute conversation with a native, before they asked where I was from. When I said Norway they looked very surprised. Turned out they thought I was a native too, they just struggled to place my dialect.

When it was over my parents picked me up. We all spoke Norwegian as they asked me about my stay.

Not even half an hour later I asked for something in a shop and it was instantly obvious my English was back to how it had been on day one...

Sure quantity of exposure helps, but I think something happens when you're immersed in it with no option but to try to understand or be understood. If you have an escape hatch it just isn't the same.

Re: Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

#13

Post by rcarr »

hrnnnnnn wrote: post #2

"I have been learning Spanish for over three years now ... However, I really struggle with understanding spoken Spanish." In this person's case, it could be that they've spent three years on duolingo instead of practicing listening to native Spanish speakers. I've been learning my target language for two years and have no difficulty understanding it when spoken. Over that time I have listened to hundreds of hours of…

I’m currently nearing the end of section 5 of the the Spanish duolingo course which is lower B1 level and I watched a Spanish film with only Spanish subtitles on for the first time a few weeks ago. I could definitely hear a lot of the words but I wouldn’t have been able to follow along if I didn’t have the subtitles because my brain just isn’t at the point where it can decode the speech in real time. But if I watched it a few times I think I would have been able to. It’s complicated by the fact that Duolingo Spanish accents are probably closest to Mexican accents whereas Spanish speakers like in the film have a much softer and lispier accent than the Latin American areas. When I watched a Mexican film a while back I was pleasantly surprised by how easy I was finding listening compared to the Spanish tv show I had been watching earlier.

I agree that you’ve got to branch out (otherwise what is the point of learning the language) but the Spanish and French courses on Duolingo give you a solid foundation.

Re: Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

#15

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

magicalhippo wrote: post #12
awelxtr wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you spent 16*90 = ~1440h practicing spoken Spanish. I do believe that if you spent the same amount of time but focused on written Spanish you would acquire a richer vocabulary.

Something happens when you are immersed in it. English is my second language. We started learning it in school when I was 10. My first trip to England, and my first serious use of English, was when I was 16. I went to a summer youth camp of sorts, and there were no one I could communicate with using my primary language. The first day was rough, I had trouble understanding the English dialects and making myself unders…

Yes, I came to the same conclusion that immersion is key.

Re: Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

#16

Post by midoridensha »

somewhereoutth wrote: post #5

My theory is that people will use the minimum 'whistles and clicks' to communicate with each other, so when there is a lot of shared context (shared society, culture, mannerisms etc) that does much of the heavy lifting for communication. For example there is the English I (unconsciously) use when speaking to English as a Second Language people, and a much cut down English for talking to native speakers that is appare…

Sokath, his eyes uncovered.

Re: Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

#17

Post by david-gpu »

tkgally wrote: post #9

> We don't notice how much adapting and adjusting our brain has to do in our own language, but in a new language, we have to re-learn those sound boundaries, for potentially dozens of new sounds. Some examples from Japanese and English: Japanese distinguishes between short and long vowels and between short and long consonants in a way that English does not. For example, the words kata, katta, and kātā (where ā indica…

As a consequence of this you will occasionally realize that native speakers distinguish between two sounds that appear the same to you, which means that not only you didn't hear the difference, but also you must have been pronouncing it wrong all along.

That's where I am right now in English with "Colin" and "calling", after almost twenty years living in English-speaking countries. Sigh!

Re: Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

#18

Post by pjmlp »

hrnnnnnn wrote: post #2

"I have been learning Spanish for over three years now ... However, I really struggle with understanding spoken Spanish." In this person's case, it could be that they've spent three years on duolingo instead of practicing listening to native Spanish speakers. I've been learning my target language for two years and have no difficulty understanding it when spoken. Over that time I have listened to hundreds of hours of…

As native speaker, I would say you have been hearing to "high spanish" most of the time.

Even I have issues understanding some regions or slang outside of the region I grew up with Spanish (Portuguese/Spanish border on Extremadura).

Just like living half of my life in DACH region, I get still get surprised by some German expressions and local dialects.

Hearing lots of native stuff helps more than Duoling that is for sure, but it isn't not having any dificulties.

Re: Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

#19

Post by david-gpu »

rcarr wrote: post #13
hrnnnnnn wrote: post #2

"I have been learning Spanish for over three years now ... However, I really struggle with understanding spoken Spanish." In this person's case, it could be that they've spent three years on duolingo instead of practicing listening to native Spanish speakers. I've been learning my target language for two years and have no difficulty understanding it when spoken. Over that time I have listened to hundreds of hours of…

I’m currently nearing the end of section 5 of the the Spanish duolingo course which is lower B1 level and I watched a Spanish film with only Spanish subtitles on for the first time a few weeks ago. I could definitely hear a lot of the words but I wouldn’t have been able to follow along if I didn’t have the subtitles because my brain just isn’t at the point where it can decode the speech in real time. But if I watched…

> whereas Spanish speakers like in the film have a much softer and lispier accent

A person who pronounces the words "think" and "sink" differently doesn't have a "lisp". The same is true in Spanish with words such as "zaca" and "saca" -- See? They are even written differently!

This phenomenon is called "distinción" [0]. The lack of this distinction, which is what we see in most of Latin America is called "seseo".

All of this is to say: please stop calling it a lisp.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_Spanis...

Re: Why is spoken language so hard to understand?

#20

Post by theta_d »

david-gpu wrote: post #17
tkgally wrote: post #9

> We don't notice how much adapting and adjusting our brain has to do in our own language, but in a new language, we have to re-learn those sound boundaries, for potentially dozens of new sounds. Some examples from Japanese and English: Japanese distinguishes between short and long vowels and between short and long consonants in a way that English does not. For example, the words kata, katta, and kātā (where ā indica…

As a consequence of this you will occasionally realize that native speakers distinguish between two sounds that appear the same to you, which means that not only you didn't hear the difference, but also you must have been pronouncing it wrong all along. That's where I am right now in English with "Colin" and "calling", after almost twenty years living in English-speaking countries. Sigh!

Depending where you are, Colin and calling might be pronounced roughly the same.
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