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Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

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Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that in the old days people read newspapers and magazines because there was no other way to spend time in a bus/subway/train/waiting_room without engaging with other people. So newspapers were entertainment (and status signals) to a much higher degree than journalists wants to admit. Being informed was only a small part of the job that reading a newspaper did. This is why Facebook could take over such a large…

I don't remember news papers being a status symbol exactly, what I remember is that it was rare for a household to have more than one subscription. Multiple magazines, sure, but not newspapers. I remember categorizing my friend's parents by their choices. "This is a National Post household" or Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail.

the categorizing shows how different newspaper signal a certain world view. They can also signal wealth, class and a political view. so i think they are very much status symbols

Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#32

The real problem is presuming the profit model for news is a good idea. It's going to always tend towards quick-turn around, low-effort sensationalism because that's the most profitable configuration. Speculation, accusation, defamation, and conspiracies will always get more eyeballs then careful balanced well researched reporting. Lying about something now is cheaper and more profitable than sending a reporter out a…

What other model do you propose? Government funded news? No news at all? Volunteer news?

Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#33
post #25

> On YouTube, I follow about 120 different YouTube channels... regularly, every week. On Twitch, I watch some other channels. In my Inbox I get about 25 newsletters per day, and on Feedly, I follow about 100 more sources, regularly. Holy crap. How do you have any time for anything else? I sub to 3 YouTube channels, never watch twitch, avoid email newsletters like the plague, and still don’t have time in my day to kee…

This, 100,000x this. There's a piece to this whole puzzle I can't figure out exactly, but it has something to do with this.

There's two aspects at play here:

1) attention economy 2) network radius

I can't quite get them disentangled in my head, but I'm confident it goes something like this:

Attention economy is zero sum. Huge network size (i.e. the firehose of Youtube et al) means there's infinite competitors. Economically, it's a race to the bottom, every competitor is trying to get whatever fraction of your attention they can (not to mention monetize it). So they wind up competing over smaller and smaller fractions.

There's an additional problem on top of this, which is that you can't vet that many people, as the consumer. This amplifies a lot of negative things in its own right.

It's like we just weren't built to be exposed to networks this large. I think it's OK to not be completely informed on all topics, and typically this used to be outsourced to communities and specialists within your communities, each of whom you knew and trusted in their own domain. But small communities are gone, and the current communities are too large for you to get to know who to trust. So you need to be an expert on all.

Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#34
I think instead of following a particular publication "New York Times", "Washington Post", etc., people will start to follow the authors. The concept of a brand with mostly invisible contributors should probably go away. Then, I do feel that a "spotify for news" could probably work. It seems a lot better than the current model where (I suspect) 99.9% of potential readers do not get past the paywall.

Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#35
post #25

> On YouTube, I follow about 120 different YouTube channels... regularly, every week. On Twitch, I watch some other channels. In my Inbox I get about 25 newsletters per day, and on Feedly, I follow about 100 more sources, regularly. Holy crap. How do you have any time for anything else? I sub to 3 YouTube channels, never watch twitch, avoid email newsletters like the plague, and still don’t have time in my day to kee…

I subscribe to 141 channels on YouTube. However, only a fraction of those subscriptions involve channels that actively, regularly publish content that I want to watch. Say 10 or so per week.

I watch a lot of YouTube; it pretty much fills all my free time. But I have plenty of playlists to keep me busy, and I pick through recommendations and try "mixes" sometimes. I will even watch the "Free with Ads" films they offer, which is a hilarious mixed bag of box office bombs and diamonds in the rough.

I don't subscribe to YouTube Premium. I don't do Patreon or "Join" any channels for a subscription. I don't send "tips" in live chat. I endure a lot of ads! But I feel like, if I would pay for one channel, I would probably end up paying for 10, and that I can't afford.

Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#36
post #16
post #13

The legalization of pharmaceutical advertisement in 1997 was the start of the corruption of our news. If you pay attention to virtually any of the news orgs, such as CNN, or MSNBC, etc, you'll see pharma ads and / or sponsorship logos during the broadcast. In many cases, the pharma company account for 70% or more of their advertising revenue. They can effectively crush any story they don't want making the mainstream,…

I'm unconvinced. There are many developed countries that don't allow pharmaceutical advertisements. If your theory was true, we'd expect stories that pharma companies want suppressed to show up there but not in the US. Can you provide examples of this? The best I could come up with is "support for public healthcare", but support for public healthcare wasn't something that got torpedoed starting in 1997.

> The best I could come up with is "support for public healthcare"

... Wouldn't that be more than enough?

They can easily spend tens of billions on advertising, in order to make hundreds of billions. You'd expect them to; if they're allowed.

Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#37
As the article points out "spotify for news" model is already here, that's Youtube and platforms like Nebula. Revenue is shared by the platform with the news creator.

And I get that people don't register many channels as "news", but I see it as just semantics. There is no ambiguity about what MKBHD is providing in his podcast/weekly Waveform videos, or how a lot of channels have a weekly video or corner to lookback at what happened during the past days, often straight labeled something like "news Thursday".

Of course, just like Spotify, the platforms can't sustain these channels. The article points at patreon, but there's another source that is completely missing from the picture: sponsors and product placements. Those represent a lot more money than the platform a and often a lot more that patreons.

Now there might be problems somewhere, but at this point I'ď see them getting solved along the way as we transition further and further from the "news agency" model to smaller "news studio" channels.

Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#38

The real problem is presuming the profit model for news is a good idea. It's going to always tend towards quick-turn around, low-effort sensationalism because that's the most profitable configuration. Speculation, accusation, defamation, and conspiracies will always get more eyeballs then careful balanced well researched reporting. Lying about something now is cheaper and more profitable than sending a reporter out a…

What other model do you propose? Government funded news? No news at all? Volunteer news?

Think about how higher education and journals work... There's lots of criticism of them but if you get, say, a masters in chemistry from let's say Columbia, you aren't going to be learning about alchemy and orgones. We seem to be able to reasonably pull that off as a society.

So I guess look at systems with relatively low bullshit information density and try to follow their lead somehow.

We might have to admit that decently produced news is hard, time-consuming, and kind of expensive.

As for "who's going to pay for it", I reject the premise. Society figures out how to pay for things they value. The first step is to create the things of value and get general society to respond in kind.

The first part is mostly done. The second part needs the work. Most people probably don't know about things like say, quanta magazine or whether it's any good or not.

Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#39

> Why is it that people like Adriene can make this work, and get young people to pay this much money when traditional publishers struggle to get people to pay anything at all? Because "Adriene" sells yoga classes, not news. I do agree that a lot of the publishers mentioned are screwed because they are no longer needed. A yoga magazine needs to figure out what it can sell, but if anything it cannot compete in yoga cla…

I've been talking about this for some years as well, but mostly without that audience of news professionals. I absolutely agree with your assessment that people won't be going back to that model of getting one subscription to pre-select what they can see that was the way in the paper age. Perhaps that could be the future if a past in which the decades of ad-funded free online news had never happened (I include "let's have an attractive web presence to lure people to our paper subscription" in ad-funded), but now that we are spoiled by having been able to read through the full political spectrum of publishers (and from every nation where they also write something in English), paying a subscription feels like paying to narrow access and that's just not very attractive.

What I imagine as an unlikely best-case model for reader-funded news isn't "spotify for news", but a "spotify for news without spotify": a step back to the print age where you'd have exactly one news subscription (unless you were particularly rich), but with what might be called reverse syndication, a profit share access scheme where every publisher acts as a spotify for its competitors. Provide proof of subscription with publication A to get a well-defined level of access at publications B,C and D, with a fixed part of the subscription fee divided amongst peers. The exact level of access would have to be well-defined of course, to prevent abusive strategies, but it could be something noticeably below "home subscription" (not ad-free perhaps?) but clearly above the free tier.

Re: Forget Spotify for news – let's fix the real problem (2017)

#40

> Why is it that people like Adriene can make this work, and get young people to pay this much money when traditional publishers struggle to get people to pay anything at all? Because "Adriene" sells yoga classes, not news. I do agree that a lot of the publishers mentioned are screwed because they are no longer needed. A yoga magazine needs to figure out what it can sell, but if anything it cannot compete in yoga cla…

I agree that the author's framing of having random Twitch streams be "news" because somebody might learn something they didn't is absurd, and the essay relies so heavily on this idea that it is basically unsalvageable.

But...

> News is a newsroom reporting on things of interest.

This doesn't feel right either. It's... not quite circular, but nearly so. It's basically saying there's a single specific historical organizational structure that can produce news, and nothing else. Sure, if you want to provide a steady torrent of news on a huge variety of subjects, you need that huge edifice of journalists, editors, support personel, etc. But why does the same organization need to be producing all the news? What makes the writings of a single individual on a single subject and following reasonable journalistic practices not news?

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