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What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

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Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#221

Post by godelski »

techwizrd wrote: post #169
godelski wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> E.g. If you have been professionally diagnosed with ADHD, the FAA bans you from any pilot's license ever, even a student license Not quite true. They just need you to be evaluated where you've been off medication for at least 90 days. But if you're on Adderall, you're shit out of luck. Which is pretty dumb since the medication resolves issues. Other dumb things that will/can prevent you from getting your license: A…

The FAA's Office of Aerospace Medicine is actively researching can improve or rethink the aeromedical certification process. We need to do a substantial amount of research with very limited resources, especially when we have limited data to conduct safety risk management and safety assurance. It's a tough nut to crack, but there's a lot of smart people working tirelessly to make this better.

At the end of the day it matters what effect it has, and especially on GA pilots here. Which we know that this are is on the brink of extinction, and this has real downstream effects, especially in commercial. I'm not trying to say the people at the FAA aren't working hard. I'm sure that the person given a spoon to dig a ditch is working harder than the person given a backhoe, but either way, that ditch needs to be dug.

Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#222

Post by godelski »

ryanmercer wrote: post #199
flangola7 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the 90 days part. Why would someone discontinue the medication that controls their symptoms? I have ADHD and take Adderall, and plan to pursue a recreational/personal license next year.

I'm guessing because a Google search of "Adderall side effects" immediately returned this: "Rare but severe side effects of Adderall can include emotional instability, psychiatric disorders and cardiovascular events. Adderall misuse can lead to seizures and death."

It's worth mentioning that people who take Adderall medicinally are taking substantially lower dosages than those who take it recreationally. Medicinal users take on average 20mg and can have dosages down to 5mg where a recreational user is taking 40mg and maybe up to 100mg. Sure, Adderall can cause the things you mentioned, but the same is actually true about sugar (a highly addictive substance, high potential for abuse, and limited medical usage).

These bins are arbitrary and dosage matters. It would be perfectly acceptable for the FAA to require 3 months of usage, at a specific dose, wherein a pilot is stable on their meds and an FAA doctor (which they must visit anyways) approves them. You can get a good idea of risk factors and stability by doing this.

Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#223

Post by hnta1024 »

paulddraper wrote: post #217
techwizrd wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FAA's Office of Aerospace Medicine is actively researching can improve or rethink the aeromedical certification process. We need to do a substantial amount of research with very limited resources, especially when we have limited data to conduct safety risk management and safety assurance. It's a tough nut to crack, but there's a lot of smart people working tirelessly to make this better.

With all due respect, "tirelessly" might be an understatement. Six years ago, they added BasicMed. And they've been updating the SSRI list. But that's it. For years of work. Why don't they just relax the third class medical requirements specifically? Only affects private pilots, nothing for hire. Currently, the FAA makes zero distinction between health conditions/medications for a Cessna 150 and a Boeing 747.

BasicMed is a step in the right direction but still a bit of a joke in itself. And you have to go through the regular medical first to even be eligible for it.

1000% agreed that they should relax third class and how absurd it is that private pilots flying a little 2 seater are held to pretty much the same standard as someone commercially flying a passenger jet.

I had two loss of consciousness episodes very close together a number of years ago due to some very extenuating circumstances (and never had an issue before that or since) and was told I will never pass a medical to get a private pilot cert. Want to barrel down a busy highway at 70 MPH in a 6500 lb SUV where you are pretty much guaranteed to hurt multiple people in an accident? No problem! Fly an 800 lb Kitfox over fields in a rural area? No way, you could hurt someone!

Funny enough, practically everyone in aviation I talked to more-or-less told me to just lie about it and pass my medical. It seems like quite a common trend for pilots - the FAA almost certainly is doing far more harm than good with these oppressive restrictions by forcing pilots away from treatment they need for fear they may be permanently grounded. I'm certain I'd pass with flying colors if I just "forgot" that one detail but I'd rather be honest about everything.

Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#224

Post by techwizrd »

paulddraper wrote: post #217
techwizrd wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FAA's Office of Aerospace Medicine is actively researching can improve or rethink the aeromedical certification process. We need to do a substantial amount of research with very limited resources, especially when we have limited data to conduct safety risk management and safety assurance. It's a tough nut to crack, but there's a lot of smart people working tirelessly to make this better.

With all due respect, "tirelessly" might be an understatement. Six years ago, they added BasicMed. And they've been updating the SSRI list. But that's it. For years of work. Why don't they just relax the third class medical requirements specifically? Only affects private pilots, nothing for hire. Currently, the FAA makes zero distinction between health conditions/medications for a Cessna 150 and a Boeing 747.

I help lead this work because I agree with you! And we have been working hard on this for the last couple of years (and most of the research is publicly available). Historically, aircraft are certified for a generic pilot, pilots are certified for a generic aircraft, and procedures are built with these generic assumptions in mind. Tailoring aeromedical certification to the type of operation, the actual aircraft, the procedures flown, and the number of hours in the air would be great. We want as many people to be able to fly as possible. But relaxing requirements isn't necessarily straightforward because it requires data to show we aren't negatively impacting safety and fundamentally rethinking the we analyze and control for risk. Commercial aviation hasn't had a hull loss in more than a decade, but private pilots are crashing every few days.

But even if we were able to make the changes we'd like to make, we still need to ensure compliance with ICAO. For example, we could not conduct aeromedical exams during the pandemic due to lack of telemedicine. However, ICAO does not even allow telemedicine to be used.

It's not for lack of trying. There are very real barriers that take significant time, resources, and willpower to solve.

Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#225

Post by techwizrd »

hnta1024 wrote: post #223
paulddraper wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, "tirelessly" might be an understatement. Six years ago, they added BasicMed. And they've been updating the SSRI list. But that's it. For years of work. Why don't they just relax the third class medical requirements specifically? Only affects private pilots, nothing for hire. Currently, the FAA makes zero distinction between health conditions/medications for a Cessna 150 and a Boeing 747.

BasicMed is a step in the right direction but still a bit of a joke in itself. And you have to go through the regular medical first to even be eligible for it. 1000% agreed that they should relax third class and how absurd it is that private pilots flying a little 2 seater are held to pretty much the same standard as someone commercially flying a passenger jet. I had two loss of consciousness episodes very close toge…

We know the system is far too conservative and encourages pilots to conceal their medical conditions, and I'm thankful you're choosing to be honest. For loss of consciousness, you can be granted a Special Issuance since you have not had one since (see Unexplained Loss of Consciousness (ULOC) [0] in the AME Guide).

My personal viewpoint: If we cannot show a condition or treatment is unsafe, why is it disqualifying? If we cannot analyze risk or determine whether a risk control is effective [1] due to inadequate data or pilot concealment, we need to re-think the way we do things.

Surface transportation (e.g., vehicles) has a ridiculous accident rate, but the public views car accidents very differently from aviation accidents. When there is a car accident, we blame the driver. When there is a plane crash due to a medical, we blame the FAA for certifying them.

0: https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/app_process/exam_tech/item46/a...

1: https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/sms/explained/componen...

Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#226

Post by hnta1024 »

techwizrd wrote: post #225
hnta1024 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BasicMed is a step in the right direction but still a bit of a joke in itself. And you have to go through the regular medical first to even be eligible for it. 1000% agreed that they should relax third class and how absurd it is that private pilots flying a little 2 seater are held to pretty much the same standard as someone commercially flying a passenger jet. I had two loss of consciousness episodes very close toge…

We know the system is far too conservative and encourages pilots to conceal their medical conditions, and I'm thankful you're choosing to be honest. For loss of consciousness, you can be granted a Special Issuance since you have not had one since (see Unexplained Loss of Consciousness (ULOC) [0] in the AME Guide). My personal viewpoint: If we cannot show a condition or treatment is unsafe, why is it disqualifying? If…

It was determined to be vasovagal syncope. One AME said 1 event is the limit 2 events means I'm out of luck. Later, I paid a senior AME to review my case and they first said the vasovagal period was too long but then changed their mind and said I could try getting a loop recorder implanted. I haven't gotten a straight answer as to how long I'd have to do that but it must be quite a while if they don't want to do a patch / Holter monitor.

Everyone seems to have different opinions, no local AMEs are apparently qualified for this and I'd need to drive hours / fly to one that is. I'm apparently just destined for deferral limbo as the FAA can just defer and let you spend more money and time trying to fight it. I'm out thousands already and there is no clear path forward. It's really remarkable considering the things pilots I've known have been through (e.g. heart surgery) and then me, perfectly healthy and never any serious medical conditions or on any medications, gets the end around. Truly disappointing and frustrating.

Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#227

Post by paulddraper »

techwizrd wrote: post #224
paulddraper wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, "tirelessly" might be an understatement. Six years ago, they added BasicMed. And they've been updating the SSRI list. But that's it. For years of work. Why don't they just relax the third class medical requirements specifically? Only affects private pilots, nothing for hire. Currently, the FAA makes zero distinction between health conditions/medications for a Cessna 150 and a Boeing 747.

I help lead this work because I agree with you! And we have been working hard on this for the last couple of years (and most of the research is publicly available). Historically, aircraft are certified for a generic pilot, pilots are certified for a generic aircraft, and procedures are built with these generic assumptions in mind. Tailoring aeromedical certification to the type of operation, the actual aircraft, the…

> Commercial aviation hasn't had a hull loss in more than a decade, but private pilots are crashing every few days.

Oh boy wait until you hear about automobiles. Gonna blow your mind.

The goal is not (should not be) maximum safety at all costs. It's a balance of safety, cost, and convenience.

---

Come on, man.

Of course a 400 million dollar jet at 35,000 feet with top-of-the-line avionics, redundant systems, IFR flight plans, and professional co-pilots with thousands of hours of flight time is going to be safer than Grandpa Bob in his Glastar.

The question is whether a private pilot with an Aderol prescription presents a public safety risk significant enough to revoke his license. What's the FAA's data to prove that it does? Non-existant?

Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#228

Post by mbrameld »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #97
rlpb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article doesn't really cover it but being able to fly without a license probably isn't the same as flying near a controlled (ie. towered) airport. If want to commute and aren't in the middle of nowhere you might find that flying in your local airspace does require a radio license in practice at least. Source: I am a licensed pilot but not familiar with flying in the US.

You can bet that people that fly these planes without a license also don't spend the time and money to get a radio license; that automatically prevents from flying to or from a towered airport. These ultra-light planes are practically big toys that you can fly over some empty field and relatively low altitudes. Powered parachutes also fall in this category.

> You can bet that people that fly these planes without a license also don't spend the time and money to get a radio license; that automatically prevents from flying to or from a towered airport.

I don't think having a radio license will keep you from flying into a towered airport. I worked as flight instructor in the southwest US, out of a class D under a bravo shelf and flew in and out of class B, C, and D airports all over the US just a few years ago and I've never held one. I worked at a busy 141 school. It wasn't and isn't required for anyone I worked with.

Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#229

Post by mbrameld »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #193
pests wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watch a creator on YT who regularly takes his paramotor (a powered parachute) across town and on longer trips. He also takes it up to at least 15k feet. That seems vastly more than empty fields and low altitudes.

15k feet is not G class airspace (uncontrolled) in most of the world, that means you need radio contact with FIR, radio license, training etc. This is not your regular ultralight.

> (uncontrolled) in most of the world, that means you need radio contact with FIR, radio license, training etc

That's not true in the US, at least. You can easily still in be class E at 15k, which doesn't require radio communication if you're VFR and not in the vicinity of an airport.

Re: What planes can you fly without a pilot’s license?

#230

Post by technick »

sealeck wrote: post #178
technick wrote: post #160

I once had dreams of becoming a pilot but the FAA considers adderall a no fly drug, even though it makes me better at everything I do. Because I wasn't diagnosed with it by a shrink or psychologist, the FAA doc in Oklahoma told me I could stop taking it for six months and then get my medical but there wasn't any way I could do that. Another guy I know who was in the same boat as me, went and got his pilots license in…

I really wouldn't want someone with ADHD flying a plane – it's just not safe.

There's different degrees of ADHD, like in my case I don't have hyperactivity though I have issues completing things I'm not into, however if it's something I am passionate about, I'm 110% in on it.

I have 19 hrs towards my private license, have flown 3 different lines of planes (Cirrus, Cessna, Piper), have a great understanding of aviation principles and aerospace science, and am confident I can operate in every class of airspace proficiently.

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