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Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

scanalyst.fourmilab.ch

191–200 of 371 posts

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#191
post #38

The article has a great flow chart in it that highlights rejected energy and energy services and where the rejected energy comes from. energy here spans the spectrum of electricity generation, heating, industrial usage, transport, etc. Basically more than two thirds of the energy is lost to heat, friction, noise, transmission losses, etc. Most of the losses are coal, gas, and oil. Important to note that the image is…

> Nuclear has a useful role to play. But it is in decline. In the US, absolute nuclear generation has been relatively stagnant over the last 10 years as plant shutdowns have been compensated by uprating other plants[1]. About 2.2 GW are coming online via the Vogtle 3 & 4 units, more updates are coming, and the Palisades unit may restart… so I think you’ll see that number creep up a bit. Existing nuclear is economical…

> Worldwide, we’re in a nuclear boom

This is not what a boom looks like: https://world-nuclear.org/getmedia/18acef23-4f61-4e14-b66e-7...

and it won't be better if you have a closer look. Take Europe, for example. Nuclear plants over budget and overdue (France, UK), projects which are highly unlikely to be ever build (Poland), a rotting nuclear fleet (France) and a final exit in Germany.

Then there are all those plants in poor countries which depend on Russia.

And then there is China with their magically fast build reactors but also with massive coal and renewable construction.

Nuclear peaked years ago, and it's going to be a decline in the future since it is money in the end deciding the fate and nuclear isn't worth it.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear competes with natural gas and coal, not oil. Beyond powering the grid, there are myriad uses for oil that nuclear cannot substitute directly for- asphalt, plastic, nylon, even Aspirin (synthesized from benzene).

And yet the biggest use of petroleum by far is for transportation. Worldwide demand for petroleum would plunge 90+% if all cars were electric and nuclear was fully deployed.

Uh, no. Only two thirds of petroleum used in America is used for transportation, and that includes all transportation. You cannot possibly get a 90+% reduction in petroleum use by electrifying all cars.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc...

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#193
> Providing energy for a global economy in which billions of people in developing countries aspire to a lifestyle similar to that of Europe, North America, and East Asia is one of the most daunting challenges of the 21st century

A daunting challenge, but that on paper "only" requires a few thousand nuclear plants. The actual challenges have to do with humans - many of those countries are unstable or are at war, and cannot do things that are way simpler than building a bunch of nuclear plants. Not to mention even among developed countries there is an irrational fear of that technology.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the things the government can and does subsidize, cheap electricity seems like a pretty good one, especially if it's clean. I suppose that does lead to sillyness like bitcoin farms though.

It's not an argument against government subsidies, it's just looking at the economic viability of nuclear power relative to other options.

Right. Does it account for positive / negative economic impact of (lack of) pollution?

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#195
post #137
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about every dollar put into the social and economic fallout of large swaths of Florida and Louisiana falling underwater? That sounds like a pretty significant opportunity cost to me.

False dichotomy; nuclear currently costs about the same as the combination of PV with enough Li-Ion batteries that it kinda looks the same from a "baseload?" perspective, and Li-Ion is the most expensive of the various options currently vaguely near the right scale for storage in that kind of timeframe. From the "everything else except baseload?" perspective, PV can also be one of the cheapest power sources around. A…

Yes, we are talking about base load. We have about a football field's worth of spent fuel sitting in casks and pools. That's not per reactor; that's in total in the US since we started running nuclear power stations. In fast neutron reactors, this could power all of the US electrical needs for 150 years without requiring any new sources of uranium (no mines, no seawater extraction, nothing!) AND would eliminate the need for 100,000+ year geological storage.

Far more compact than batteries, wouldn't compete with other large scale transitions that need batteries like electric cars, and would work even during either a week-long blizzard, tornado, or hurricane.

Batteries offset the power needs from dusk to dawn, but most solar farms do not build capacity for extended (multi-day to week) outages. A single tornado let alone a hurricane could wipe out gigawatts of solar or wind capacity. Containment domes on nuclear reactors by contrast wouldn't even blink at these kinds of natural disasters.

We need solar. We need wind. We need geothermal. We need hydro. And we need nuclear to completely eliminate most fossil fuels from our energy cycle. We need some of all. Diversification in energy sources is a good thing.

I strongly disagree that everyone needs the same solution. Some nations are extremely rich in wind while others are mostly devoid of it. Nations like Iceland have a ridiculous surplus of energy due to geothermal resources. Some nations have easy access to hydro while most don't. New Zealand could probably power twenty New Zealands on wind alone. Even in the US we see this in play. The South/Southeast have little to no wind resources at all but are VERY sensitive to severe weather events that would tear apart large solar arrays leaving millions without power for fall too long. In the North and center of the US, wind power is almost a no-brainer. High, consistent winds across the plains could offset many other forms of electricity generation, especially away from large bodies of water. Geography strongly guides which solutions are available.

The US produces over 37 billion metric tons of CO₂, making the U.S. responsible for 14% of global emissions on its own. Regardless of what other nations do (and I hope they continue toward de-carbonization), the US must take an aggressive role in reducing its own fossil fuel emissions within its borders, since those are the only emissions we can directly control. Diplomacy and economic incentives can only go so far across international borders, but building an maintaining ties overseas is obviously of great importance for that reason. None of this "America First" crap.

As for domestic production of electricity, we are already out of sync with countries like Iran, regardless of what Israel does or does not do. We have 93 nuclear power plants. Iran has 1. The nuclear power (and weapon) genie is already out of the lamp. Everyone knows how to make a nuclear plant today. That said, Israel (and Iran) have other options like PV and especially solar thermal. They exist in a region where thermal masses could be used to great effect without concern of Plutonium proliferation.

We absolutely, positively do NOT need every nation to get their power from the same sources. We only need them to get that power from sources other than fossil fuels.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#196
post #84
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Edit: Really don't get the down vote here. It's costing the Japanese anywhere from $200-$800 billion? 1) That isn't an astronomical number. It is $2,000-$8,000 per Japanese person. For a freak accident. Put that in $/kWh terms and you might find that nuclear was reasonably cost effective even in one of the worst nuclear disasters in history, let alone under normal conditions. 2) I don't know if it is controversial;…

Pretty sure the cleanup costs for continued use of coal, oil, and natural gas due to global climate change far exceed any from nuclear, including even Chernobyl. Entire nations are disappearing under the rising seas [0]. So far they are relatively poor and lack political influence. Bangladesh is soon for the chopping block. Louisiana and Florida are not far behind. Folks really don't get how close to sea level massiv…

Nuclear competes with renewables going forward.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#197
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen the economic costs of the cleanup operation though? It's absolutely astronomical (for various reasons). That money is not money going to new nuclear plants or renewables, but going to nowhere. This effects people too. Edit: Really don't get the down vote here. It's costing the Japanese anywhere from $200-$800 billion? (Depending on how you look at it) Is this controversial or something? Is that not a lo…

I had suffered the downvoting on reddit before: write something backed with data against nuclear (specially if your source is a pro-nuclear report), and in less than 5 minutes you get -10 and no replies.

Sure, it's Reddit. Point out that Europe and EU isn't the same and you get 50-100 downvotes in a discussion where the difference matters followed by a boatload of snarky responses. But this isn't Reddit. Here the same snark and opinions are put in pretty packages to avoid mods, but it's still there. Look at any mention of China or Socialism for example.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#198
post #51

All the analysis like this forget to count the cost of decommissioning the nuclear technology, reactors and fuels. Cost for end of life reactors are an order of magnitude those of contruction, and no safe definitive solution for fuel exist, both payed by -public-. The technology is not safe, a nuclear incident will span years and affect a wide area, people life, healt, and economic impact are to count in, not easy to…

I'm not sure they forget about cleanup for nuclear so much as it just isn't included for any power generation method.

The residual ash from coal plants are called coal tailings. They basically contain everything in the coal that didn't burn. Currently this is all piled up near the coal power plant. So you have chemicals like mercury, arsenic, and lead, as well as a smattering of radioactives like uranium sitting in a pile. Occasionally weather washes out these "piles" and they find their way into streams or leach through the underlayment to hit the ground water. When a coal plant is decommissioned the owner files for bankruptcy and the pile of coal tailings becomes another Superfund site.

Yet somehow nuclear is different. Even though if nothing is done, in a thousand years the coal tailings will still be just as toxic as today. While the radioactive waste will be near a background.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#199
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear technology is safe enough, and the storage of the waste is non-issue: the amount of waste produced thorough last 80 years since we first split atom would fit in a single storage facility of the size of the football stadium. If we want to move away from fossil fuels then the nuclear is our best bet, solar and wind are just impractical toys.

> Nuclear technology is safe enough "enough" is a point of view, is your, so ok for you, not enough for me. Fukushima was not enough safe, but again, for me. And there are many others "not enough" situations others than 3 famous. > storage of the waste is non-issue.. To me, is not a volumetric problem, but for time ad long term safety. At fukushima disposing of the contaminated water is still a big problem now, imagi…

Efficiency of solar and wind isn't the real issue. The problem is: solar only works during a day, and wind farms only work when there's wind. Which makes both of them irregular, unpredictable. It could be mitigated if we had a cheap mass energy storage technology, but we don't (Li-Ion batteries are way too expensive, and hydroelectric storage requires very specific conditions, it cannot be built just anywhere). What we need is a stable supply of energy which is independent of the time of day and the weather. Nuclear can be that.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#200
post #55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could very, very easily kill a thousand times more. That we haven't seen anything like a worst case scenario for a unclear accident does not mean those are impossible.

What do you think that worst case is, and how are you estimating it?

If Russia will blow up Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Plant in Ukraine, then huge area of productive land and sea can be heavily contaminated, which can lead to global famine, which can kill millions.
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