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A third of North America’s birds have vanished

nautil.us

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Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#131

Post by dotnet00 »

mptest wrote: post #93
zizee wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all the talk about becoming an interplanetary (mars) species for our own survival has to be the most absurd statement that can be made to dismiss the very real problems...but billionaires need an excuse to play Tony Stark. This is a thinly veiled dig at Elon musk. It's so weird that you think what he's doing is the problem, with his efforts bringing about electric cars earlier than what would have happened. He migh…

>his efforts bringing about Government subsidies and his engineers brought that about. Not Elon freaking musk. Stop drinking his kool aid.

That's precisely why every private launch company before SpaceX succeeded! After all, they had even larger government subsidies and even more engineers! /s

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#132

Post by tnias23 »

Like almost every other goddamn problem we face, the solution is boring as hell: campaign finance reform.

If politicians actually represented their constituents, they would be able to effect the policy changes required. But they don’t, because campaign finance is broken, allowing the richest, most blood-sucking elements of society to have the biggest influence.

If you have the opportunity to vote for someone who believes strongly in getting money out of politics, please do it.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#133

Post by uptime »

jeffbee wrote: post #83
23B1 wrote: post #35

One thing I dislike the most about these problems – and the information/media/activism around them – is the "solutioning". Yes, we should recycle and reduce carbon emissions and learn to live in a more integrated fashion with earth. But the problem is so diffuse and requires substantive work against powerful forces (government, business, apathy). What I'd like to see more of, when presented with these sorts of proble…

"Bird-friendly yard" is probably the most counterproductive of these. Habitat loss is far and away the biggest problem that birds face. Anyone having a yard is the problem. People must learn to congregate in compact development forms and leave the land for the animals, if they care about having animals. Probably the only easy life change individuals can do is not eat meat and not buy ethanol. That would return tons o…

Each homeowner just needs to cut back a little and dedicate a percentage to native plants and wilder growth. What we need are the right insects in each region, then the birds will follow. A huge manicured lawn (pesticides make it worse but even without) and none native plantings allow the wrong bugs to win, and in some cases those bugs are not good food for the birds that live in that region or temperate zone.

We don’t need complete wilding or any bad feels, just learn to appreciate the beauty of a wilder native section of a property.

No, I am not an expert but this seems to be the easiest thing to do.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#134

Post by wombatpm »

jeffbee wrote: post #83
23B1 wrote: post #35

One thing I dislike the most about these problems – and the information/media/activism around them – is the "solutioning". Yes, we should recycle and reduce carbon emissions and learn to live in a more integrated fashion with earth. But the problem is so diffuse and requires substantive work against powerful forces (government, business, apathy). What I'd like to see more of, when presented with these sorts of proble…

"Bird-friendly yard" is probably the most counterproductive of these. Habitat loss is far and away the biggest problem that birds face. Anyone having a yard is the problem. People must learn to congregate in compact development forms and leave the land for the animals, if they care about having animals. Probably the only easy life change individuals can do is not eat meat and not buy ethanol. That would return tons o…

I’m in the Midwest. I noticed a big drop off in birds when westnile virus came through. Dead birds in the middle of the yard was a dead giveaway. Don’t see crows anymore.

But when I was a kid I never saw hawks, now I can usually spot 5 or 6 when I’m out during the day.

Makes me wonder what the baseline count should be.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#135

Post by nverno »

krainboltgreene wrote: post #77
leeoniya wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pollution, habitat destruction, and climate change are not all different things. i guess you can blame all the above on a single root cause, though: human over-population. we just don't have plagues and famines like we used to; we're really good at killing everything that we don't like. i see my neighbors dousing their lawn with weed killer and pesticides every season, followed by grass nutrients! then burn 2gal of g…

> human over-population in no way is this the root cause, in any real scientific analysis. it is literally just the rallying call of right wing politics.

I'd say it is the root cause, since habitat destruction and pollution have been proportional to population size. If the human pop. hadn't grown geometrically throughout recent history, there almost certainly wouldn't have been the global decimation of wildlife/habitat we have today.

To support such a large population, half of the earth's habitable land is currently being used for agriculture - that's a shitload of habitat destruction - that's not even accounting for all the rest of the space people use for homes, etc.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#136

Post by chrsstrm »

23B1 wrote: post #35

One thing I dislike the most about these problems – and the information/media/activism around them – is the "solutioning". Yes, we should recycle and reduce carbon emissions and learn to live in a more integrated fashion with earth. But the problem is so diffuse and requires substantive work against powerful forces (government, business, apathy). What I'd like to see more of, when presented with these sorts of proble…

You missed the biggest point - North America is a capitalist society and there's no money in any of these solutions. There's profit in deforestation. There's profit in using pesticides. There's profit in razing forests to expand suburbs. But there's no profit in maintaining a natural and healthy habitat for the creatures that live in the areas we want to exploit.

Do local solutions work? Yes, they absolutely do. I've been working with state and local foresters on a habitat improvement project on land that I own and it is producing real results. Since 2018 I've been converting ag land to forest and meadows. I've planted over 6000 trees with my own hands and constructed and curated scrapes (ponds) and meadow areas with local grasses and flowers. It took a couple years but the turnaround is evident. I have families of ducks living on my land that never used to be there before. The area has become popular with migrating geese and sandhill cranes. I have a healthy array of woodland creatures who took up residence including a family of bobcats. Local wildflowers have attracted and given a home to more bees than I've ever seen out on that property. By all measures my project is a success and I'll continue it for as long as I can, but all monies that fund this come out of my own pocket. I can enroll in the state's managed forest program to receive tax breaks on my property, but that's about it. I could solicit donations and look for grants to help foot the bill, but even then I'd still be in the red. The only ROI I will get from these actions is the belief I'm doing my part for a social cause. And just like governments or social groups or even corporations, when times get tight the feel-good programs and dollars are the first to get cut since they don't show a return that can be expressed on a balance sheet. If I reach a point where I can't pay for more trees or spend time planting them, I just won't plant more trees. I have 42 more acres of trees to plant but I also won't starve myself and my family to make it happen. I've talked to lots of people about the options I have for funding this work but it all comes down to either pay for it yourself or take charity.

Everyone wants to save the trees. Everyone wants to save the birds and the bees and all the furry woodland creatures but no one wants to pay for it. You're not fighting against goodwill, you're fighting against capitalism and you'll always lose because there are no objective returns on investment for the preservation of natural habitat.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#137

Post by corwinstephen »

23B1 wrote: post #35

One thing I dislike the most about these problems – and the information/media/activism around them – is the "solutioning". Yes, we should recycle and reduce carbon emissions and learn to live in a more integrated fashion with earth. But the problem is so diffuse and requires substantive work against powerful forces (government, business, apathy). What I'd like to see more of, when presented with these sorts of proble…

Ask HN: Are there any companies doing good work in this space?

I'm looking for a new gig and have been shocked at how few companies seem to understand the types of solutions that stand a chance at making a difference re: these sorts of problems.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#138

Post by wilg »

bmitc wrote: post #114
23B1 wrote: post #35

One thing I dislike the most about these problems – and the information/media/activism around them – is the "solutioning". Yes, we should recycle and reduce carbon emissions and learn to live in a more integrated fashion with earth. But the problem is so diffuse and requires substantive work against powerful forces (government, business, apathy). What I'd like to see more of, when presented with these sorts of proble…

Individuals cannot solve this. I leave trees up, dead or alive. I plant native plants. I remove invasive species. I only keep invasive bushes if they house birds. I don't spray for insects except around the base of my house, I don't kill off chipmunks, voles, squirrels, rabbits, etc. How can this compete with the dozens of neighbors in a half-mile radius that have removed in excess of hundreds of trees, big ones like…

I'm a bit confused by this:

> Unless governments take action and penalize corporations for the harm they've done and take measures to prevent further harm, we won't be able to stop what's coming.

What corporations? It sounds like your neighbors are just individuals? And can you clarify "what's coming"?

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#139

Post by slily »

dataviz1000 wrote: post #126

"Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals."[0] [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 Studies show that outdoor cats kill billions of birds annually. Anecdotally, posting anti cat studies on social media leads to real world threats and cat lovi…

It also suggests that up to >20 billion mammals are killed by those cats each year. Quick Google search says that there are fewer than 60 million domestic pet cats in the US, and about the same number of feral cats. So on average domestic cats kill up to >150 mammals a day? And since not all of them are allowed outdoors, those supposed killer outdoor cats would practically kill an animal every few seconds. Looking at the lower estimates the numbers still look crazy. Even if we round up all the estimates for our number of cats to 200 million total and use the lowest values for the estimates, it implies that the average kill count for a domestic cat (including indoor cats) is 6.5 birds and 31.5 mammals(!) a day! And the estimate range is pretty large, so the average is much higher! Umm...

Sorry but I don't believe this at all. I've seen this paper posted several times around the Internet and it contradicts my experience completely.

Finally, the paper does mention that the majority of those estimated deaths are attributed to unowned (i.e. feral) cats. I thought I should point that out since you're obviously implying that cat owners letting their pets roam outside are causing this.

Re: A third of North America’s birds have vanished

#140

Post by godelski »

23B1 wrote: post #35

One thing I dislike the most about these problems – and the information/media/activism around them – is the "solutioning". Yes, we should recycle and reduce carbon emissions and learn to live in a more integrated fashion with earth. But the problem is so diffuse and requires substantive work against powerful forces (government, business, apathy). What I'd like to see more of, when presented with these sorts of proble…

> viable solutions proposed that can be implemented bottom-up

Don't have outdoor cats: https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/

From the cited source: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

> We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely __the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals.__

(emphasis my own) Besides this, your cats will live longer and healthier. Like the average cat lives twice as long (or more) when indoor. Do it for the birds, do it for the squirrels and other small mammals, and do it for your own fucking cat.

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