Live data from Hacker News

Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

fortune.com

121–130 of 409 posts

Re: Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

#121
post #92
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be a function missing from government. All governments, AFAICT. Legislators change the law (including, rarely, the constitution) — effectively by applying a hierarchy of "countermanding orders" — to suit the changing interests of the public. Courts interpret the law, but only downstream of legislation. The executive can make regulation and executive orders, but only in agreement with the law. But at th…

That’s what Constitutional amendments are for, and it’s happened 27 times in the history of the US, most recently in 1992. The corporate media doesn’t typically like to talk about that process since it is a threat to the entrenched powers that be. The ombudsman of the American people is their state legislatures. We have sovereign states in the US. Let’s not add any more power to the federal apparatus to solve a perce…

> That’s what Constitutional amendments are for,

Yes, you'll note that I said "the data will lead to a mandate for a constitutional amendment." My point is that the mechanisms that create and ratify constitutional amendments are broken for this purpose; not that we need a thing other than constitutional amendments.

Given the actual way bipartite or tripartite governments (at all levels — from municipal to federal) function in the real world, constitutional amendments only happen when there's a need to use an amendment to overridingly countermand law.

Constitutional amendments are almost never used for their original designed purpose — to pre-empt the ability to create law — because the legislative process is purely reactive, never proactive. Legislatures the world over only act when either corporate lobbying interests or outraged citizens demand they act.

The thing I'm saying doesn't exist, is a proactive branch of government that turns things that are currently "known to be desirable" but not yet "outraged about being taken away", into constitutional amendments protecting those things, before some law can be made somewhere that violates the implicit, intuitional, self-evident, but previously non-applicable right that the public believes it has. Like a right to anonymity in cash transactions.

Until a decade or two ago, nobody ever considered that "being able to transact anonymously via cash" needed to be thought of as a right. It was simply the only way things worked. There were no clear examples of it not working that way elsewhere in the world to serve as object lessons on why you'd need such a law.

Or, consider prohibition. Did the US really need to issue the 18th amendment, struggle for two decades, and then issue the 21st amendment to repeal it... when anyone who lived in America at any time during the two centuries before the rise of the temperance movement, could have seen that the public actually seems to consider itself to have a self-evident right to ingest mind-altering substances — and thereby, that there should be a constitutional limitation on laws which prohibit the production and sale of mind-altering substances? Yet America still doesn't have a constitutional amendment enshrining that self-evident right. Because there's no system for discovering "latent" public sentiment and enshrining it. If everybody thinks something, but nobody says that thing, then it never becomes law.

(If you think it's dumb to care about what "everyone thinks but nobody says" — why do you think democracy is built on secret voting? The public has a lot of things they want but aren't willing to say they want in front of others, for fear of reprisal in their local social-normative environment — including who they think would best represent them democratically!)

To your other points:

> The ombudsman of the American people is their state legislatures.

Legislatures at all levels are purely reactive; and therefore can't react to latent public sentiment, only to active demands.

> We have sovereign states in the US. Let’s not add any more power to the federal apparatus to solve a perceived problem with itself

What about every other democratic nation in the world that doesn't have this problem? (I'm Canadian, myself.) While America makes a good example for the failings of the reactive model for constitutional amendment, adding a proactive pipeline from latent public sentiment to constitutional amendment would be a change applicable to every country with a constitution. Not just democracies, actually; even constitutional monarchies.

That being said — everything I'm saying also applies, in the US, to state governments and their state charters/constitutions/other founding documents. State governments could have such a proactive body just like federal governments could. City governments could have such a proactive body. Heck, even corporations could have a proactive body to enshrine the interests of shareholders into the corporation's charter! (I bet there are corporations whose employees and shareholders would all prefer the corporation be transitioned to a B Corp with certain values held above profit — just not with enough outrage to consolidate a voice to make any coherent demands of the board of directors.)

Re: Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

#122

Her television interview with the former(?) minister responsible for this abomination of a law was urgent and necessary. These legislators know what they are doing, and that it is unethical. Let Signal leave the UK market. If the people want freedom, let them take it themselves. Perhaps before this generation of young men are rounded up for another one of history's meat grinders in Ukraine, as a means to further redu…

[flagged]

We're asked not to write things like this here.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>being ruled by a family Nice hyperbole. Western monarchs have no real political power. They're just figureheads whose wealth is continually financed by the state. Which is stupid, but they're not rulers of anything other than their own lavish properties.

Utter rubbish. Prime ministers have long held weekly audiences with the monarch. The monarch has the right to review legislation before it is put to parliament. That mechanism has been used to change laws - in your lifetime, on this side of the century. These are just three examples from the top of my head.

The monarch cannot lawfully overrule parliament. The monarch is entitled to review legislation and express an opinion, but they must act on the advice of parliament.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

Re: Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

#124

Governments seem to want to have it both ways. As new technologies are introduced they assume that capabilities and practices available to analogous predecessors must remain available to them (e.g. wire-tapping phones => undermining cryptography) but they don’t feel the same way about public benefits or rights associated with other technology that is being replaced (anonymous cash transactions => ???) It also seems l…

All governments will trend towards tyranny if left unsupervised. Imo western democracies have been entirely subverted by an imaginary left/right conflict, where you end up with exactly the same thing no matter who you elect. The voting population is so completely engrossed with their contempt for either the detestable “left wing” tyrants, or the detestable “right wing” tyrants that they can’t see the side they end up…

Right/left is not imaginary. Whoever told you that wants you to think it's imaginary, so you won't bother to oppose them, because you think the opposition to them is just as bad as they are.

Re: Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

#125

For other UK citizens: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/634725

Goodness, I hate to be this guy, but do these petitions ever actually help? I can’t think of one that I’ve followed up to the debate that has been successful in anything except getting a solid “no” from the sitting government.

Direct action, enough to be villainised by the media, seems to be the only way that politicians will actually listen — though even then its a massive uphill struggle.

God, I feel so unrepresented.

Re: Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

#126

Governments seem to want to have it both ways. As new technologies are introduced they assume that capabilities and practices available to analogous predecessors must remain available to them (e.g. wire-tapping phones => undermining cryptography) but they don’t feel the same way about public benefits or rights associated with other technology that is being replaced (anonymous cash transactions => ???) It also seems l…

>It also seems like there’s a tendency to relitigate battles that are lost. I assume the UK had some equivalent to the 90s crypto wars They didn't, and for what it's worth public opinion is overwhelmingly in favor of the law. I think anyone discussing a British law ought to keep that in mind ( https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/68pn2b6b57/NSPCC_OnlineSafetyBil... ). Even on the most contentious parts of the bill: Do you bel…

The public opinion being in favour of detecting CSAM does not necessarily mean the public opinion is in favour of sending all your photos to GCHQ to check if they're CSAM.

Re: Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

#128
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society should require that the spirit and purpose of any law be included as a preamble to that law's text and be used in the interpretation, application, and future adaptation of that law. The spirit and purpose may be obvious at the time, but won't necessarily be that way to future generations. Laws with no explanation about their purpose or goals are like the compiled binaries of a program. Ideally, in the future…

Society should require that the spirit and purpose of any law be included as a preamble to that law's text and be used in the interpretation, application, and future adaptation of that law. I agree, and it mostly is. I'm pretty sure it is always recorded when a congressman speaks about a bill, plus they always show dissenting opinions of the SCOTUS. However, one major problem is that language changes with time. Words…

> I think all laws should have an expiration date, and have to be debated, and possibly reworded again and again over the generations.

Until “thou shalt not kill” gets held hostage by a senator who wants a subsidy for a coal mine.

Exempt those kinds of laws - murder, theft, false witness? Congrats, you have a de-facto theocracy.

Re: Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

#129
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a number of UK laws with odd carve-outs for the royal family. A notable one is the Equality Act where there is a carve-out that allows the Royal family to discriminate with its hiring practices in a way that would be illegal for any other organisation. I don’t think there are any examples of significant changes to provisional laws, but certainly tweaks to make sure the royal family doesn’t have to keep with t…

Oh, sure - that I’d believe. The royal family has historically been the prototype for “above the law.” But I meant I wasn’t aware of any cases in which (in our lifetimes or relatively recently) the royal family had put their thumb on the scale of a law and had it modified in a way that changed it for the general citizenry of the UK.

They've vetted over 1000 that may conflict with their interests.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/08/royals-vette...

Re: Signal president says company will not comply with U.K. ‘mass surveillance’ law

#130
What does exit the UK market mean here though?

Presumably that it won't appear in the Apple App Store or Google Play?

Presumably that's more of an issue for the iOS ecosystem... But for android you just switch from using play to FDroid or an APK, right?

I presume a sufficiently irked UK wouldn't be able to do anything more, as Signal already as ways of circumventing traffic blocking within specific states?

Doesn't this just stop less motivated or technical folk getting signal... But for anyone motivated, or with nefarious intent, I don't see how this prevents anything the bill targets as a harm.

Post reply on HN