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Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

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Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#131

Post by javert »

ktizo wrote: post #123
javert wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying a definition is a description is a total dumbing down. I don't know why they don't teach this stuff in grade school anymore... they should. A definition must identify the nature of the units, i.e., the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are. And The rules of correct definition are derived from the process of concept-formation. The units of a concept were d…

Am reminded of the quote from Futurama; "All that is ours was once flushed down your toilets. Over there is our aquarium. This is our library. Nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand."

Well, a person can be honest, or they can just go by what a cartoon says. I guess you took the latter path.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#132

Post by javert »

Locke1689 wrote: post #114
javert wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying a definition is a description is a total dumbing down. I don't know why they don't teach this stuff in grade school anymore... they should. A definition must identify the nature of the units, i.e., the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are. And The rules of correct definition are derived from the process of concept-formation. The units of a concept were d…

No. I see that they also don't teach the history of continental philosophy in grade school. The term that you are conflating with the word "definition" is most closely related to the philosophical term "essence." Essence is the property which give things their identity -- an object without its essence loses its concrete identity. When Socrates attempts to find the essence of virtue, he does not seek to describe the t…

Needless to say, I disagree with you on this topic. I can't make a better argument than the book from which I pulled those quotations, so I'll direct people who are interested there.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#133

Post by ktizo »

javert wrote: post #131
ktizo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am reminded of the quote from Futurama; "All that is ours was once flushed down your toilets. Over there is our aquarium. This is our library. Nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand."

Well, a person can be honest, or they can just go by what a cartoon says. I guess you took the latter path.

I honestly got reminded of the quote from Futurama.

And I honestly don't take Ayn Rand as a definitive resource on much beyond her own ego. She claimed that her philosophy was unique, other than a sole debt to Aristotle. Aristotle of all people. The guy who can't even count the legs of a fly and who thinks that menstruating women cloud mirrors if they look in them. So sorry if I stoop to ridicule if you worship her turgid prose, but really.

[edit] Also - as to her definition of table that you gave, well it could just as easily be describing a shelf. And the idea of the definition of table being some absolute thing based on shape is preposterous. I do wish these philosophers would have a chat with some designers before waffling on about platonic forms of household objects. A table is defined by usage, expectation and personal perception. In weightless environments, the concept of table could easily be a clear, easily accessible floating box kept in the middle of a spacecraft's living space, for instance.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#134

Post by javert »

ktizo wrote: post #133
javert wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, a person can be honest, or they can just go by what a cartoon says. I guess you took the latter path.

I honestly got reminded of the quote from Futurama. And I honestly don't take Ayn Rand as a definitive resource on much beyond her own ego. She claimed that her philosophy was unique, other than a sole debt to Aristotle. Aristotle of all people. The guy who can't even count the legs of a fly and who thinks that menstruating women cloud mirrors if they look in them. So sorry if I stoop to ridicule if you worship her t…

You can't judge Ayn Rand (well, anyone--and that's my real point) by a mistaken attack on someone else (Aristotle). That's worse than judging her by a cartoon. Again, it's not an honest approach.

So sorry if I stoop to ridicule if you worship her turgid prose, but really

In case you actually think I approach ideas in a dishonest, religious way (hence, "worship")--I don't. This is just a stupid comment.

And the idea of the definition of table being some absolute thing based on shape is preposterous

This is a misunderstanding of the idea being presented. But anyway, you couldn't get a complete understanding without reading the original source (it's from a book), so speculating on it here is probably pointless.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#135

Post by philwelch »

dctoedt wrote: post #98
thinkcomp wrote: post #41

There are all sorts of reasons, but first and foremost is the lack of transparency in all things legal. This is why I'm working on PlainSite ( http://www.plainsite.org ). The opacity creates the illusion of difficulty, the need for (arbitary) specialized knowledge, and uncertainty as to the real price because so many factors are hidden from view. For example: you're expected to follow the law even without knowing wha…

Thinkcomp, I agree with almost everything you say about the economics of the legal profession, but I think you miss out on something crucial. Before I went to law school, I unconsciously thought of law as a branch of engineering: Learn the rules, twist the right dials, and things will happen as you expect. That was naive. Law does have rules, and dials to twist, but for socio-political reasons I won't go into here, t…

In parts, law is probably closer to sales than meteorology.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#136

Post by philwelch »

michaelkeenan wrote: post #77
rodyancy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a regulatory body it would be too easy for an unqualified person to pose as an electrician, doctor, dentist or lawyer. Do you really want someone with no experience or training wiring your house, pulling your teeth, operating on your knee, or defending you at trial?

I'm sad that you've been downvoted, though I disagree with you. Occupational licensing doesn't just improve service quality (if it improves service quality), it also increases the price. The result is often that instead of great quality, the consumer gets nothing at all because ze can't afford it. This hits the poorest people hardest. In the USA, the poor have a famously bad time with healthcare and legal advice. The…

With healthcare at least, there are walk-in clinics and nurse practitioners. Without licensure you wouldn't have a surfeit of cheap doctors; you'd have quacks running around representing themselves as doctors. With licensure you still have the quacks, but they call themselves "alternative medicine" and you can still go to them if you want. So there's no real loss of choice there.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#137

Post by learc83 »

law wrote: post #129
law wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it results in uncontrollable externalities. Take the electrician example: what happens if an unlicensed electrician kills himself when performing work? Does his family get to collect from your homeowner's insurance? Can they sue you? Are you criminally liable? What about when you sell the house? Should you have to disclose that someone unlicensed did the wiring? What if you don't and the house ignites in a fi…

@learc83: the difference between professions requiring and not requiring licensure is the foreseeability of the risks. A reasonable person should be able to foresee the risk that a painter might fall from a ladder. A reasonable person might not be able to foresee the risks associated with installation of wiring by an unlicensed electrician.

>the difference between professions requiring and not requiring licensure is the foreseeability of the risks.

No, the difference is in the lobbying power of industry incumbents. A quick search will show that there are states where interior decorators, and trumpet players are required to be licensed.

I think the law can assume a reasonable person would be aware of the dangers of electricity. Most states have moved away from requiring gas pump attendants--is a reasonable person aware of the dangers of gasoline? If so why not the dangers of electricity?

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#138

Post by learc83 »

andylei wrote: post #124
learc83 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about the number of lawyers, but also the cost to become one. In the US, unlike many other countries, practicing law requires a graduate degree from an accredited school. This dramatically adds to the cost of a legal education, and drives up the price for everyone. This is the direct result of "regulatory capture of government protected guilds."

> the cost to become one the cost of law school is a fixed (and by the time you become a lawyer, sunk) cost, and therefore has no bearing on supply decisions. moreover, how does the cost of law school jack up prices in a world where there is an excess of lawyers? if you're a lawyer, do you charge the amount that covers your loans, or the amount that nets you the most profit? the very fact that there are excess lawyer…

There is an excess of lawyers in certain areas; an excess of IP lawyers doesn't map to an excess of divorce attorneys.

>if you're a lawyer, do you charge the amount that covers your loans, or the amount that nets you the most profit?

If all lawyers were interchangeable, your argument might hold, but the artificially high price of legal education leads to a misallocation of resources--The increased cost of student loans can cause lawyers to move into specialities that are higher paying, causing shortages in one area and surpluses in others.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#139

Post by ktizo »

javert wrote: post #132
Locke1689 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I see that they also don't teach the history of continental philosophy in grade school. The term that you are conflating with the word "definition" is most closely related to the philosophical term "essence." Essence is the property which give things their identity -- an object without its essence loses its concrete identity. When Socrates attempts to find the essence of virtue, he does not seek to describe the t…

Needless to say, I disagree with you on this topic. I can't make a better argument than the book from which I pulled those quotations, so I'll direct people who are interested there.

"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."

As quoted from Oscar Wilde, so this post might be recursive ;)

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#140

Post by bane »

mirceagoia wrote: post #115
bane wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So to answer your own question, when you are sick, need legal help, or stuck by the side of the road, do you comparison shop for best price or do you go to first available?

Depends on how much time you have...if it's very urgent you get the first available...if it's not that urgent then you can afford to compare.

Right, and the comparison is usually not over price, but perceived quality. The best example for doctors is elective plastic surgery. Do you get a boob job from the cheapest or the best? The glut of expensive surgeons in the L.A. area indicates cost is not a major factor.

For lawyers it might be a lawsuit. Do you go with the cheapest lawyer? Most people go with who they think is most likely to win the case (or net the most money from the suit).

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