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The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

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Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the term didn't exist or was popularized by people that are now over 60. --- counterculture (n.) also counter-culture, "way of life or collective values deliberately at variance with the prevailing norms of a time and place," 1968, from counter- + culture (n.). Popularized by, and perhaps coined in, the book "The Making of a Counter Culture" by U.S. academic Theodore Roszak. As an adjective by 1972.

> Because the term didn't exist or was popularized by people that are now over 60. And because even if it was nominally a generic term, its use to describe the generic phenomenon faded with the aging of the particular youth counterculture movement it was coined for; “punk” and later movements which might fairly be described as countercultural were never as popularly labeled with the term “counterculture” as the hippi…

++

I'm too old to know what the current counter culture is. I think when I was young it was the emo crowd making melancholy ok (not emo so guessing).

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were the one asking for examples and yet you refuse to define what examples you're looking for.

You’re hiding behind a blade of grass.

I'm not hiding anywhere. You're projecting like IMAX.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the term didn't exist or was popularized by people that are now over 60. And because even if it was nominally a generic term, its use to describe the generic phenomenon faded with the aging of the particular youth counterculture movement it was coined for; “punk” and later movements which might fairly be described as countercultural were never as popularly labeled with the term “counterculture” as the hippi…

++ I'm too old to know what the current counter culture is. I think when I was young it was the emo crowd making melancholy ok (not emo so guessing).

> I'm too old to know what the current counter culture is.

Its old people from the establishment culture that elevate particular countercultural movements to the status of “the counterculture” of the time.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the radical sets their phone to "do not disturb" and plays frisbee-golf or pub trivia I have recently been surprised to learn how robust both the stamp collecting and model railroading hobbies are these days. Living in the HN bubble, I just assumed they were both dead. They're not. Not by a long shot. I wonder what other "old timey" hobbies are still popular.

that's funny, I saw a thing recently covering the death of stamp collecting, with participants obsessive but aging, very few young people entering the scene and very few interesting stamps (to collectors) being made. I'm confident railroads will continue to be a thing though, its ajacent to wargaming which I know is going strong from my own participation :)

> with participants obsessive but aging, very few young people entering the scene

I believe amateur/ham radio is experiencing a similar aging out of interest as well.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not trying to say every argument for an ideology is a conspiracy theory. I don't have a problem with ideology (though I have problems with particular ideologies), and I don't have a problem with making a case for an ideology. I have a problem with "justifying ideology by stealth" as I called it, deceptive framing which seeks not to argue by presupposing your conclusions in your unstated assumptions. (The same g…

I don't know anything about Australian politics in 1954 so I can't comment on that example. I can tell you that I can identify an ideology for every conspiracy that I am familiar with. Off the top of my head: - Flat Earth conspiracism is about an anti-intellectual pan-Christian traditionalist ideology - QAnon is about a similar pan-Christian ideology, and a sort of radical personal responsibility - Antisemitic conspi…

> I can tell you that I can identify an ideology for every conspiracy that I am familiar with.

Are you familiar with UFO conspiracy theories such as Area 51/Roswell/etc? What is their ideology? How about JFK assassination conspiracy theories, what ideology are they? What is the ideology of the moon landing hoax theory? Or the conspiracy theory (which a taxi driver once tried to convince me of) that the passengers on MH370 were abducted by the CIA? [0]

> - Flat Earth conspiracism is about an anti-intellectual pan-Christian traditionalist ideology

Wikipedia [1] says:

> Research on the arguments that flat Earthers wield shows three distinct factions, each one subscribing to its own set of beliefs. The first faction subscribes to a faith-based conflict in which atheists use science to suppress the Christian faith... The second faction believes in an overarching conspiracy for knowledge suppression... The third faction believes that knowledge is personal and experiential. They are dismissive of knowledge that comes from authoritative sources, especially book knowledge

So, contrary to what you say, it says only one branch of Flat Earthers have a Christian ideology. Also, it isn’t “pan-Christian”: almost all Christian Flat Earthers are non-traditional Protestants (such as “independent Fundamentalists”); very few Christian Flat Earthers are Catholics or Orthodox or traditional Protestants (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists, etc). At the time of Christianity’s founding, most educated people believed the Earth was round, and the vast majority of Christian leaders accepted that societal consensus; it is only in modern times that a tiny fringe has emerged to question it. The idea that belief in a Flat Earth was ever widespread in the history of Christianity is actually a myth that was invented by polemicists in order to defame Christians (especially Catholics) [2]

> - Antisemitic conspiracy theories are about an ideology of white supremacy, and of mythic struggle among "races".

Antisemitic conspiracy theories are extremely popular in the Arab and Muslim worlds, but in that context have nothing to do with white supremacy. To quote Wikipedia’s article on the infamous antisemitic hoax “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” [3]

> Neither governments nor political leaders in most parts of the world have referred to the Protocols since World War II. The exception to this is the Middle East, where a large number of Arab and Muslim regimes and leaders have endorsed them as authentic, including endorsements from Presidents Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar Sadat of Egypt, President Abdul Salam Arif of Iraq, King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, and Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi of Libya. A translation made by an Arab Christian appeared in Cairo in 1927 or 1928, this time as a book. The first translation by an Arab Muslim was also published in Cairo, but only in 1951. The 1988 charter of Hamas, a Palestinian Islamist group, stated that the Protocols embodies the plan of the Zionists. The reference was removed in the new covenant issued in 2017. Recent endorsements in the 21st century have been made by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Sheikh Ekrima Sa'id Sabri, the education ministry of Saudi Arabia…

The Nation of Islam has been a major promoter of the antisemitic conspiracy theory of Jewish responsibility for the Atlantic slave trade. [4] Their ideology is definitely not white supremacy. Antisemitism is found all over the ideological spectrum, even among secular progressives [5]; it is a disease which transcends the boundaries of ideology - and antisemites of any and all ideologies are susceptible to accepting antisemitic conspiracy theories

> May I ask if you've ever had an extended conversation with a conspiracy theorist?

Yes, a good friend of mine was quite taken in by PizzaGate, and tried hard to convince me of it, although in the end we agreed to disagree. Also, whatever is the ideology of PizzaGate as a whole, I know my friend didn’t share it. I’m convinced his credulity on that topic was more about his personal dislike of Hilary Clinton than disagreement with her actual policies (e.g. he was and is the kind of guy who says things like “abortion is a women’s issue, men should stay out of it”)

[0] https://time.com/104480/malaysia-airliens-flight-370-mahathi...

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_beliefs

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth https://www.patheos.com/resources/additional-resources/2010/...

[3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_...

[4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Relationship_Betw...

[5] https://www.algemeiner.com/2022/09/06/adl-ceo-left-wing-anti...

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anything about Australian politics in 1954 so I can't comment on that example. I can tell you that I can identify an ideology for every conspiracy that I am familiar with. Off the top of my head: - Flat Earth conspiracism is about an anti-intellectual pan-Christian traditionalist ideology - QAnon is about a similar pan-Christian ideology, and a sort of radical personal responsibility - Antisemitic conspi…

> I can tell you that I can identify an ideology for every conspiracy that I am familiar with. Are you familiar with UFO conspiracy theories such as Area 51/Roswell/etc? What is their ideology? How about JFK assassination conspiracy theories, what ideology are they? What is the ideology of the moon landing hoax theory? Or the conspiracy theory (which a taxi driver once tried to convince me of) that the passengers on…

> Yes, a good friend of mine was quite taken in by PizzaGate.

I'm sorry that happened. That's really rough. I've also known some conspiracy theorists.

> Are you familiar with UFO conspiracy theories such as Area 51/Roswell/etc? What is their ideology? How about JFK assassination conspiracy theories, what ideology are they? What is the ideology of the moon landing hoax theory? Or the conspiracy theory (which a taxi driver once tried to convince me of) that the passengers on MH370 were abducted by the CIA?

"You gave me three examples? Well why don't you give me ten more?"

It seems like you're just trying to bury me in questions. Yes I am familiar with some of these, but I don't think this is really a good faith question or that you would be convinced if I provided you with my analysis of them, so I don't see why I should put in the effort.

> Flat Earth

> Antisemitism

So what I said was correct for a large subset of these groups (if we leave the pan-Christian part aside, my argument stands regardless of whether it is Christian or pan-Christian), and there are additional sects of the theory...? Presumably advocating different ideologies (eg you cite literal religious extremists - are you going to tell me that isn't ideological with a straight face?)? That doesn't really impact my argument. (I also just disagree with the analysis of that Wikipedia article, those are not distinct subsets of the Flat Earth community.)

I feel like you're starting to become uncharitable. I'm not really seeing a substantive disagreement here, frankly and meaning no disrespect, I'm seeing a series of nitpicks. So I think this is where I'll have to bow out of the discussion.

Best of luck.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

#277
post #82
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this is the biggest argument against deplatforming: it actually makes them cool. The thing that mystifies me is that when parents get in on something it usually nukes the coolness factor, but the far right has an overwhelming supply of 50+ year olds on just about every platform and this has had no impact on its rise in popularity among the teens and twenty-somethings.

One thing the Internet has at least weakened is age stratification in culture, for the simple reason that it's hard to tell how old people are online. Also I'm not talking so much about Fox News right wingers. I'm talking about the 4chan /pol stuff. The stuff Fox provides is the radio-safe edit.

Those goddamn 13 year old Estonians are at it again! https://estonianworld.com/security/a-global-neo-nazi-organis...

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

#278

The real counterculture right now is non-participation . In a world where virtually everything is either designed to completely waste your time or fail and not be repairable, it's a highly radical act to stop consuming like the 95%, preferring to spend time with other humans in reality doing something that isn't technological. In spite of the popular world pushing the message that you will be fulfilled living in virt…

Networks of cottage industry. During Covid lockdowns I joined a powerlifting gym that was a startup in an old dry cleaners, had to “try out” to get in (make sure I wasn’t a narc), was the only gym in a city of 5+ million that was open and they had papered over the windows so prying eyes couldn’t observe the no-masks inside. I had the fewest tats in the place, you only wear black, there will never be any TVs and the h…

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here and the relation to the post you responded. >Fast forward years later and I get my coffee beans from a startup local roaster who hosts an Elvis impersonator, for the motorcycle meetup, I learned where the tats get done, I support a local microbrewery, there is a cafe where I get lunch, I got my black t shirts from a designer…every single business owner I just mentioned goes to the same gym.

So you consume/buy products that are most likely pricier, but sell you the idea of being 'more valueable' because they are organic, local this, that. And this is your idea of counter-culture and non-participation? You buy things and consume products that Walmart doesn't sell? This seems like a pretty generic, consumerist way to to distinguish yourself from the rabbles and appears to me like a typical 2010s hipster lifestyle you are portaying. But the so-called counter-culture crowd you found doesn't pull out their smartphones when being around others, therefore they renounce the modern tech world?

I really can't say if your post was meant to be sarcastic or if I am just not getting the joke or you are being serious.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture, it's just not on Instagram (2021)

#279
post #5

> To be truly countercultural in a time of tech hegemony, one has to, above all, betray the platform which may come in the form of betraying or divesting from your public online self. Interesting enough quote, maybe obvious but maybe a nice reminder too. > Search Google Images for ‘counterculture’ and it overwhelmingly returns black-and-white photos of young people all now over 60. I just love the idea of some social…

I wonder... Is it because with increasing cultural fragmentation there is no longer a single culture to be counter to and therefore the term itself is outdated?
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