Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

forbes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 217 posts

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#71

Post by mfaustman »

learc83 wrote: post #48
thinkcomp wrote: post #41

There are all sorts of reasons, but first and foremost is the lack of transparency in all things legal. This is why I'm working on PlainSite ( http://www.plainsite.org ). The opacity creates the illusion of difficulty, the need for (arbitary) specialized knowledge, and uncertainty as to the real price because so many factors are hidden from view. For example: you're expected to follow the law even without knowing wha…

>More lawyers could afford to charge reasonable market rates, and not work for large firms, if it weren't for the ABA mandating that you have to attend a law school (that results in huge piles of debt) or clerk for years (four in California) in order to join the bar. That's exactly the problem, regulatory capture of government protected guilds. It's exactly the same with Doctors and the AMA, or electricians, hell in…

So you do not need to go to law school to be a lawyer. Anyone can take the BAR and be a lawyer. Again, as Antone points out, this all comes down to a perception of quality. Many people (and I am not saying you) would not hire a lawyer who did not go to law school.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#72

Post by electromagnetic »

rodyancy wrote: post #57
learc83 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>More lawyers could afford to charge reasonable market rates, and not work for large firms, if it weren't for the ABA mandating that you have to attend a law school (that results in huge piles of debt) or clerk for years (four in California) in order to join the bar. That's exactly the problem, regulatory capture of government protected guilds. It's exactly the same with Doctors and the AMA, or electricians, hell in…

Without a regulatory body it would be too easy for an unqualified person to pose as an electrician, doctor, dentist or lawyer. Do you really want someone with no experience or training wiring your house, pulling your teeth, operating on your knee, or defending you at trial?

On the building front, this is BS. I was an electrician in the UK, and because of the regulatory capture here in Canada it's not worth my time to become an electrician.

I'm completely unqualified as an electrician here in Canada, but I have more varied experience with electrical circuits, safety testing and literally everything to do with the job than 99% of electricians here in Canada (and the US for that matter).

I can tell you the very simple system that works for the rest of the construction industry outside of those requiring "qualifications". It's called permits and paid on completion. If the electrician doesn't pass on his permit, it doesn't reach completion and you don't pay. Why does this system work for framers, brick layers and every other trade, but it doesn't work for an electrician. Sorry that's fishy.

I legally can do my own wiring on my own house here in Canada and get it inspected by the ESA and then the building inspector to pass permit. An electrician has to pass the permit anyway. Why can I not work on someone elses house and get the ESA to pass my work? Why can I not apply for the ESA to inspect my work and verify that I'm a competent electrician. Because I would like to tell you the truth, in that only 20% of those "qualified" electricians are actually doing work to code and more importantly safely.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#73

Post by flyt »

pak wrote: post #22

So, Forbes is republishing Quora answers now? This must be part of that new strategy where they try to gain more traffic ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targe... ) with other people's content ( http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.h... ).

These answers are republished by Quora to Forbes, with permission from the original authors. See this for more info: http://www.quora.com/How-does-Forbes-decide-which-Quora-answ...

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#74

Post by ShabbyDoo »

There is one restriction in particular which I believe has a huge effect on the legal industry's slow pace of change -- only lawyers may own companies which provide legal services to clients (vs. in-house counsel). So, want to start an online, virtual law firm? Either act as a referral service or make sure you never want a non-attorney to have equity in your company. Why does this rule exist? I haven't a clue.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#75

Post by nknight »

thinkcomp wrote: post #59
rodyancy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a regulatory body it would be too easy for an unqualified person to pose as an electrician, doctor, dentist or lawyer. Do you really want someone with no experience or training wiring your house, pulling your teeth, operating on your knee, or defending you at trial?

If I want to represent myself or my company at trial, I should have that right.

You have the right to represent yourself, but not another person or entity, which is what you would be doing if you attempted to represent your limited liability entity in court. It doesn't matter if you're the sole shareholder or not, you and the company are not one and the same.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#76

Post by learc83 »

electromagnetic wrote: post #72
rodyancy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a regulatory body it would be too easy for an unqualified person to pose as an electrician, doctor, dentist or lawyer. Do you really want someone with no experience or training wiring your house, pulling your teeth, operating on your knee, or defending you at trial?

On the building front, this is BS. I was an electrician in the UK, and because of the regulatory capture here in Canada it's not worth my time to become an electrician. I'm completely unqualified as an electrician here in Canada, but I have more varied experience with electrical circuits, safety testing and literally everything to do with the job than 99% of electricians here in Canada (and the US for that matter). I…

My stepdad was a nuclear power electrician in the Navy, but when he got out he found out that he'd have to spend years as an apprentice to someone less qualified than him in order to be licensed.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#77

Post by michaelkeenan »

rodyancy wrote: post #57
learc83 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>More lawyers could afford to charge reasonable market rates, and not work for large firms, if it weren't for the ABA mandating that you have to attend a law school (that results in huge piles of debt) or clerk for years (four in California) in order to join the bar. That's exactly the problem, regulatory capture of government protected guilds. It's exactly the same with Doctors and the AMA, or electricians, hell in…

Without a regulatory body it would be too easy for an unqualified person to pose as an electrician, doctor, dentist or lawyer. Do you really want someone with no experience or training wiring your house, pulling your teeth, operating on your knee, or defending you at trial?

I'm sad that you've been downvoted, though I disagree with you.

Occupational licensing doesn't just improve service quality (if it improves service quality), it also increases the price. The result is often that instead of great quality, the consumer gets nothing at all because ze can't afford it. This hits the poorest people hardest. In the USA, the poor have a famously bad time with healthcare and legal advice.

There are mechanisms other than mandatory qualifications by which consumers can measure quality, including voluntary qualifications, reputation, and price signaling. These aren't perfect, but neither are mandatory qualifications. Each mechanism has advantages and disadvantages.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#78

Post by randomdata »

rodyancy wrote: post #57
learc83 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>More lawyers could afford to charge reasonable market rates, and not work for large firms, if it weren't for the ABA mandating that you have to attend a law school (that results in huge piles of debt) or clerk for years (four in California) in order to join the bar. That's exactly the problem, regulatory capture of government protected guilds. It's exactly the same with Doctors and the AMA, or electricians, hell in…

Without a regulatory body it would be too easy for an unqualified person to pose as an electrician, doctor, dentist or lawyer. Do you really want someone with no experience or training wiring your house, pulling your teeth, operating on your knee, or defending you at trial?

I would like to have the choice, yes.

I still can choose to pay more for someone with a demonstrable history, but if I want to take the risk on an unknown and save some money in the process, why shouldn't I be able to?

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#79

Post by mirceagoia »

flyt wrote: post #73
pak wrote: post #22

So, Forbes is republishing Quora answers now? This must be part of that new strategy where they try to gain more traffic ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targe... ) with other people's content ( http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.h... ).

These answers are republished by Quora to Forbes, with permission from the original authors. See this for more info: http://www.quora.com/How-does-Forbes-decide-which-Quora-answ...

Indeed, that's the situation. There is a partnership.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#80

Post by bane »

anamax wrote: post #61
bane wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They need a lawyer. And they need to stop spending time searching, and get on with resolving. So a lot of claims from lawyers that they operate in a free market are really not true. They mistake what are basically extortion/price gouging rates for free market pricing." It's interesting because the same fundamental problem is true of health care in the U.S. It's essentially, "they need a doctor. And they need to stop…

> The market dynamics and model are entirely different with these sorts of emergency industries. Would you call auto-repair an emergency industry? After all, if you break down on the side of the road, you need assistance immediately? The vast majority of medical care is NOT given in an emergency situation. The same is true of legal services. And yes, auto repair as well.

So to answer your own question, when you are sick, need legal help, or stuck by the side of the road, do you comparison shop for best price or do you go to first available?
Post reply on HN