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Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

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Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#41
There are all sorts of reasons, but first and foremost is the lack of transparency in all things legal. This is why I'm working on PlainSite (http://www.plainsite.org). The opacity creates the illusion of difficulty, the need for (arbitary) specialized knowledge, and uncertainty as to the real price because so many factors are hidden from view.

For example: you're expected to follow the law even without knowing what the law says. When you want to find out what the law says, it's not easy--it's certainly not available in a standardized format. When you want to interpret what you find, assuming you find it, that's not easy either. Courts interpret things in new ways all the time.

The federal court system charges you to access public information contained in court proceedings, with limited exceptions--that is, if you even know where to look for it. See http://www.thinkcomputer.org/20120209.pacer.pdf. The interface is terrible and hard to use. The way in which you write lawsuits is obscure, counterintuitive, and creates additional needless work.

In addition to all of these factors, and perhaps because of them, lawyers (especially at big firms) have institutionalized fraud. It's taken for granted that legal billing is often fraudulent. If you charge $500 per hour and your system only resolves to the tenth of an hour, that means if you spent four minutes writing an e-mail, you can charge for 0.1 hours, or $50. But really you only did $33.33 of work. That's a nice cushion. But what actually happens is that an attorney might do 45 minutes of work and round it up to an hour--even though that work is formatting in Microsoft Word that the client could have done; or printing out a Word document in order to scan it in as a PDF. Still seem worth $500 per hour?

For those lawyers not at large firms, they're covering expenses (such as law school) that are enormous. High rates are a necessity, and who would charge far lower than market rates anyway? It might be interpreted as a signal that something is wrong.

Of course, don't for a minute think that paying $800 per hour will get you a better lawyer than paying $300 per hour. It might. Either way, you'll be paying someone in a staggering number of cases to unscientifically guesstimate What The Government Might Do, when the answer is, "who knows?". That doesn't mean all lawyers are the same; some are definitely better than others. But it has nothing to do with price.

More lawyers could afford to charge reasonable market rates, and not work for large firms, if it weren't for the ABA mandating that you have to attend a law school (that results in huge piles of debt) or clerk for years (four in California) in order to join the bar. See http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/25/opinion/are-law-schools-an....

Lawyers know, too, that you can't get rid of them (also thanks to the ABA), and so you're locked in. There's a monopoly on business representation, for example. See http://www.plainsite.org/issues/index.html?id=137. It's absurd.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#42
Traditional supply-demand economics just doesn't explain the behavior of "middleman" industries, such as lawyering, real estate agenting, etc.

Traditional supply-demand economics assumes a 1:1 ratio where there is one buyer and one seller and there is some amount of economic surplus that the two parties play tug-of-war with. Traditional supply-demand economics works great when buyer and seller negotiate directly.

But in middleman industries, the middlemen can hop on either side, and play for either team. They are able to effectively scope out surplus from either or both sides, predatorize the weaker side with almost _no risk_ to themselves, and destroy a lot of the potential realized value between the original parties in their process.

So basically it creates a "parallel" economy where prices aren't determined by supply or demand, but rather by fear and a kind of high-stakes prisoner's dilemma between buyers and sellers where buyers and sellers bear all the risk and lawyers and agents reap all of the rewards.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would probably be prepared to learn it, if it paid. IANAL, but I'm guessing the main problem would be legal limitations.

And the BAR, like any other "professional" "over-seeing" monopolistic organization isn't about to reduce it's own members value... just like the AMA, Teacher's Unions, ETC. When certification(s) is/are required [to practice], those that have the certifications have a vested interest in limiting the access to said certification(s). It's all a legal racket.

We need an American Programmer's Association.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#44

The unobvious but major thing missed is that hiring the wrong lawyer is far more expensive than an additional $300 per hour. Since the only way to know if you are hiring the right lawyer is to base it on brand, top firms have a lot of pricing power and middle firms dissapear.

> "top firms have a lot of pricing power and middle firms dissapear"

This is generally true. However, there's increasing pressure from clients, not to simply push billing rates lower, but for flat-fee arrangements.

While in many areas of law the billable hour is secure [1], in many others there not only isn't a strong argument in favor of it, but clients are increasingly pushing back against it [2].

And I'm not surprised to see a successful lawyer completely ignoring it, even in a post that serves largely as a setup for his pitch about coming disruption. IME every lawyer who hasn't seen his primary clients insist on flat-fee billing would prefer to pretend the issue didn't exist. And those that are dealing with flat-fees, would prefer not to talk too loudly about it, for many of the prestige/traditional reasons behind the ever-increasing billable rate itself.

Now, most firms are structured in a way that can wrap their minds around a $400 billing rate and remain profitable without changing things too much -- indeed they likely already have attorneys making the firm money charging "only" $400/hr.

But a flat-fee is not only anathema to their pride, but largely unsustainable given their structures. Between the lines of those comments about "overhead" is the fact that most of it is unnecessary, legacy nonsense that has persisted solely because the billable hour warps incentives. [3] Most law firms are simply not ready for pricing that will require them to so optimize their internal operations. And this is where the real disruption will appear and where middle firms have an opportunity. [4]

[1] Mergers, acquisitions, litigation, etc.

[2] Legal zoom-type work, some ip registration, etc.

[3] Hourly billing rewards inefficiency. If an attorney can generate enough business to keep themselves and their billable staff busy for as many hours per day that they care to work, cutting the time it takes them to perform their tasks by 20% means they bill 20% less. Which means they need to go scare up 20% more work to merely maintain their previous revenues. And as generating new business is not itself billable, Attorneys tend to treat "increased efficiency" as "more work for the same money".

[4] They have some experience, less 'pride' clouding their vision, but sufficient revenue to fund experiments in innovation.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#45

To some extent, lawyers (or, more accurately, law firms) are Veblen goods -- meaning that their services are perceived as being better if they're more highly priced and exclusive. There's a general perception that a high-priced lawyer is a top-notch lawyer, and that skimping on such lawyers carries a huge deal of legal risk. This dynamic plays out particularly in the BigCorp world, and especially if there's ever a pe…

It seems to me that lawyers have a captive market - I mean, you're not going to not hire a lawyer when you need one, yes? And with the truckload of new laws that enter the books every year, there will likely be no shortage of need anytime soon.

It seems to me this 'salary matching' is basically price-fixing, even if unintentional. If my only option is a $650 / hour lawyer or a more prestigious $750 / hour lawyer, why not pay the higher price? I mean, legal matters can be scary to those not well versed in the intricacies of the law.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#47
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They need a lawyer. And they need to stop spending time searching, and get on with resolving. So a lot of claims from lawyers that they operate in a free market are really not true. They mistake what are basically extortion/price gouging rates for free market pricing." It's interesting because the same fundamental problem is true of health care in the U.S. It's essentially, "they need a doctor. And they need to stop…

There are both things that can be dealt with through a bit of planning. I.e. determine a pool of potential lawyers you will use and in the same regard determine a pool of potential hospitals/doctors you want to use. Then if you need one, you've done the leg work and know where to go.

Depends, this might work for some common cases, but there are lots of different kinds of lawyers just like different kinds of doctors.

The lawyer I use for business is entirely different than the one I might use to defend against a murder charge is entirely different from defending against a traffic ticket is entirely different to sue on a trademark case is entirely different from suing somebody for slashing my tires, etc.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#48

There are all sorts of reasons, but first and foremost is the lack of transparency in all things legal. This is why I'm working on PlainSite ( http://www.plainsite.org ). The opacity creates the illusion of difficulty, the need for (arbitary) specialized knowledge, and uncertainty as to the real price because so many factors are hidden from view. For example: you're expected to follow the law even without knowing wha…

>More lawyers could afford to charge reasonable market rates, and not work for large firms, if it weren't for the ABA mandating that you have to attend a law school (that results in huge piles of debt) or clerk for years (four in California) in order to join the bar.

That's exactly the problem, regulatory capture of government protected guilds. It's exactly the same with Doctors and the AMA, or electricians, hell in some places even interior decorators.

If you've ever had to hire a commercial electrician, it's absolutely terrible. Once they pull a permit and start working, it's extremely difficult to replace them, and they know it.

Recently the general contractors in Georgia convinced the state to raise the net worth requirement for contractors. They are already required to have massive insurance coverage, so the only reason was to protect the incumbent contractors from new competition.

Anywhere you end up with government sanctioned guilds ran by industry or ex-industry people, you're just asking for regulatory capture and the resulting protectionism.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#49

Traditional supply-demand economics just doesn't explain the behavior of "middleman" industries, such as lawyering, real estate agenting, etc. Traditional supply-demand economics assumes a 1:1 ratio where there is one buyer and one seller and there is some amount of economic surplus that the two parties play tug-of-war with. Traditional supply-demand economics works great when buyer and seller negotiate directly. But…

Traditional supply-demand economics assumes a 1:1 ratio where there is one buyer and one seller

That's not what 'ceteris paribus' means.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#50
post #32
post #17

"Back to Econ 101. What happens when you double the price of something? Demand for it decreases." Pretty sure what he's describing is sliding the supply curve straight up, which has exactly the opposite effect.

I think you have marginal utility confused with marginal cost . For a given supply, as demand increases, that causes an increase in price. But obviously, increasing the price does not (usually) cause an increase in demand.

If we're rationalizing this with economic principles, I think we can chalk it up to "imperfect information".

Also demand is static regardless of price changes. Quantity demanded is what changes. Apologies for the pedantry but don't want anyone reading too much here and making that mistake on a econ test :)

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