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Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

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Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#31

Post by javert »

jerrya wrote: post #6

This may not apply to the world of corporate lawyers the answer seems to be about, but at a smaller level, there are enormous switching costs involved in moving away from, and training a new lawyer. And it's not a free market. In a free market, the consumer can walk away from a purchase. Most times individuals or small businesses need a lawyer, they are in no position from walking away. They need a lawyer. And they n…

So a lot of claims from lawyers that they operate in a free market are really not true.

A free market isn't defined by whatever arbitrary criteria you make up.

You can't claim it's not a free market because it's a hassle to switch lawyers, or because it's expensive to do so, or because searching for lawyers takes time.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#32

Post by sp332 »

kwekly wrote: post #17

"Back to Econ 101. What happens when you double the price of something? Demand for it decreases." Pretty sure what he's describing is sliding the supply curve straight up, which has exactly the opposite effect.

I think you have marginal utility confused with marginal cost. For a given supply, as demand increases, that causes an increase in price. But obviously, increasing the price does not (usually) cause an increase in demand.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#33

Post by jrs235 »

simonbrown wrote: post #5
mirceagoia wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think lawyers from other countries know US law? I don't think so. You will pretty much have to start over in US.

They would probably be prepared to learn it, if it paid. IANAL, but I'm guessing the main problem would be legal limitations.

And the BAR, like any other "professional" "over-seeing" monopolistic organization isn't about to reduce it's own members value... just like the AMA, Teacher's Unions, ETC. When certification(s) is/are required [to practice], those that have the certifications have a vested interest in limiting the access to said certification(s). It's all a legal racket.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#34

Post by jerrya »

baddox wrote: post #27
jerrya wrote: post #6

This may not apply to the world of corporate lawyers the answer seems to be about, but at a smaller level, there are enormous switching costs involved in moving away from, and training a new lawyer. And it's not a free market. In a free market, the consumer can walk away from a purchase. Most times individuals or small businesses need a lawyer, they are in no position from walking away. They need a lawyer. And they n…

I don't think that becoming dependent on a particular product, service, or supplier makes it "not a free market."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market#Overview

Adam Smith believed that an economy should be free of monopoly rents

If I can keep you from switching lawyers, if I can keep you from interviewing other lawyers, if I know your choice is not "lawyer or no lawyer", but "which lawyer", then I can keep my prices artificially (not a free market) high.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#35

Post by lallysingh »

There are a few things to add in here (IANAL, but I'm close to quite a few).

A major element is billable hours.

When you want to reduce a bill for a client, during bad times or whatever, you can always under-bill the number of hours spent. Or change the mix of high-low-rate hours expended. Reducing the number of hours billed doesn't (necessarily) reduce the number of billable hours you can credit the attorneys.

While you can have equal salaries across departments, you have bonuses, which depend on how many hours you billed. Also, #billable hours is a great sort criteria for who's first on the shit-list and first on the promote-list.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#36

Post by jerrya »

javert wrote: post #31
jerrya wrote: post #6

This may not apply to the world of corporate lawyers the answer seems to be about, but at a smaller level, there are enormous switching costs involved in moving away from, and training a new lawyer. And it's not a free market. In a free market, the consumer can walk away from a purchase. Most times individuals or small businesses need a lawyer, they are in no position from walking away. They need a lawyer. And they n…

So a lot of claims from lawyers that they operate in a free market are really not true. A free market isn't defined by whatever arbitrary criteria you make up. You can't claim it's not a free market because it's a hassle to switch lawyers, or because it's expensive to do so, or because searching for lawyers takes time.

That's not the claim I made, and you didn't address the claim I made.

I said: the consumer cannot just walk away. If I am buying a stereo, my choice is between a) do I need a stereo or not, and b) where do I buy it. The purchaser of law services usually does not have the option of walking away from the deal entirely. His/her choice is limited to: which of these expensive lawyers do I go with?

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#37

Post by geebee »

mirceagoia wrote: post #3
puppop wrote: post #2

Because there are no H-1B lawyers.

Do you think lawyers from other countries know US law? I don't think so. You will pretty much have to start over in US.

I think they'd be able to learn. In fact, I'd say I'm sure they could learn.

Keep in mind, there isn't much incentive to learn US law when it's illegal for you to practice in the US. If the US allowed foreign graduates to sit for the bar and provided a visa and path to a green card to anyone who managed to pass and hold down employment, I think many foreign law schools would appear. Many would fail, but many would pass, and some would be very talented. Honestly, I don't think it would be all that different from software development, though I suppose the bar requirement would probably establish a higher floor than you see in programming.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#38

Post by dantheman »

bane wrote: post #11
jerrya wrote: post #6

This may not apply to the world of corporate lawyers the answer seems to be about, but at a smaller level, there are enormous switching costs involved in moving away from, and training a new lawyer. And it's not a free market. In a free market, the consumer can walk away from a purchase. Most times individuals or small businesses need a lawyer, they are in no position from walking away. They need a lawyer. And they n…

"They need a lawyer. And they need to stop spending time searching, and get on with resolving. So a lot of claims from lawyers that they operate in a free market are really not true. They mistake what are basically extortion/price gouging rates for free market pricing." It's interesting because the same fundamental problem is true of health care in the U.S. It's essentially, "they need a doctor. And they need to stop…

There are both things that can be dealt with through a bit of planning. I.e. determine a pool of potential lawyers you will use and in the same regard determine a pool of potential hospitals/doctors you want to use. Then if you need one, you've done the leg work and know where to go.

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#39

Post by chollida1 »

the way I had lawyer, dr, etc. fees explained was that they can charge so much as you often don't get a second chance.

If your life is on the line for an operation, you want the best doctor available.

Your life on the line in a trial, you get the best lawyer available.

This has a trickle down effect. Or put another way, if you don't get a second chance, things had better go right the first time. Fear is a powerful motivator.

Want that dream house?

Better make sure the paper work from the forclosure is done properly. Sure you can try to do it yourself or with a budget firm, but what if they make a mistake. Your dream house is gone.

Want to make sure your kids are protected in case of your death, better get the best lawyer you can to do your will. Sure, you can print a form off the internet, but we've all seen that go wrong. Don't your kids deserve peace of mind during the troubling times surrounding your death?

Re: Why Are Lawyers So Expensive Even With The Excess Supply Of Lawyers?

#40

Post by dantheman »

javert wrote: post #31
jerrya wrote: post #6

This may not apply to the world of corporate lawyers the answer seems to be about, but at a smaller level, there are enormous switching costs involved in moving away from, and training a new lawyer. And it's not a free market. In a free market, the consumer can walk away from a purchase. Most times individuals or small businesses need a lawyer, they are in no position from walking away. They need a lawyer. And they n…

So a lot of claims from lawyers that they operate in a free market are really not true. A free market isn't defined by whatever arbitrary criteria you make up. You can't claim it's not a free market because it's a hassle to switch lawyers, or because it's expensive to do so, or because searching for lawyers takes time.

The fact that there is a bar and licensing means that it's not a free market.
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