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Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

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Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#81

I've always wondered why big banks don't implement a lot more technologies, and I guess this gets to some of it. But it does seem like banks would have the incentives to kill services like Venmo and Stripe overnight. Like why are there not clear and straightforward banking APIs that let me create virtual cards and why doesn't my app let me just transfer money directly to my friend's bank account (I get global being a…

They probably won't get huge cashout by killing Venmo and Stripe by sheer force, rather they'd invest and buy them as needed.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#82
post #14

As someone who's not entirely opposed to crypto, this was an interesting read. Mostly in terms of the following: I sort of assumed that one of the factors (among many, for sure) limiting widespread adoption of crypto was that the thing we (in the US) already have was probably pretty smooth? And reading this, seems like it really ain't. Interesting that crypto hasn't made inroads here. I mostly get why, incumbents don…

In addition to what sibling commenters have said, I think part of the issue is friction and need. Out of the hundreds of merchants I transact with, probably only a handful accept cryptocurrencies, and that is in addition to "conventional" payment methods. So why would I bother?

Beyond that, paying with a cryptocurrency requires extra technical effort that many people don't have or don't want to deal with. Using an exchange to switch between fiat and cryptocurrency is an extra step that adds friction (and many of these exchanges end up embroiled in scandal and/or get shut down, making it hard for people to trust the extant players). And the sheer number of choices of what coin to use also muddies the waters for many people. Bitcoin is obviously well known, but transactions are slow (or are on a lightning network, which requires understanding more concepts and jargon) and expensive.

Then there's volatility: Bitcoin lost nearly 3% of its value (against USD) today. I certainly wouldn't trust that to keep money in as a stable store, like a checking or savings account analogue. Sure, you can go for things like USDC (and you probably should!), but the concept of a stablecoin is another concept to learn, and then you have to figure out how to get them and transact with them. A quick web search for "pay with USDC" shows quite a few options, and your average person isn't going to know what to do there.

Also consider that this article was about bank transfers, and bank transfers alone. In the US, for example, we get around the annoyance of bank transfers with credit and debit cards, and payment apps like Zelle, Venmo, and Cash App. Ultimately there's very little actual need for cryptocurrencies.

Certainly one big area is international transfers, but most people (in the US, at least) either don't need to do them at all, or have other options. For payments to many non-US merchants, I can still use my US-issued credit card. International person-to-person payments are the main pain point, and I expect some people do use cryptocurrencies for this. Others stick with the older-school methods like Western Union.

When traveling internationally, I used to withdraw local currency (using my US-bank-issued debit card) at the destination airport, and then mostly pay with cash. These days I find that most places I travel will accept US credit cards in many places, so I essentially pay the same way I pay at home, while being sure to use a card that doesn't impose foreign transaction fees. Certainly there are countries where US credit cards aren't all that useful, but I think the point is that those places are likely a minority when it comes to where most Americans might travel, not to mention that most Americans rarely or never leave the US in the first place -- many don't even have passports!

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#83
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really true of crypto if you consider any chain but Bitcoin and Ethereum. You can send USDC on Arbitrum (an Ethereum L2) for Also, as the article points out, international transfers are still painful. Paying $10 to transfer money internationally is probably still a very good deal for most people.

I don't know why this is downvoted; I understand that there's a lot to dislike about crypto, but "international transfers" is no longer even a question. A lot of people today literally use crypto for that.

Sure, but also consider this statement by the GP:

> You can send USDC on Arbitrum (an Ethereum L2) for

The vast majority of Americans reading that would have no idea what any of that means, or even how to figure out what it means. There are too many choices and too much jargon in the cryptocurrency world, and it takes real work and effort to figure it out. And then you have to have confidence that you understand it well enough so you don't make a mistake and send your money someplace you didn't intend. That's a real concern for many people, especially those who aren't all that tech-savvy. All those people will likely just rely on something like Western Union, even though it's annoying and they could theoretically have less friction with cryptocurrencies, at least after they've learned everything and set it up properly.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#84
(2021)

This piece mentions FedNow, an instantaneous 24/7 bank transfer system for the US, whose launch happens to be imminent. Details:

https://www.clevelandfed.org/collections/speeches/2023/sp-20...

However, unlike UPI in India, neither banks nor businesses are required to support FedNow, so adoption will likely be slow, especially because the traditional (and more expensive) credit card based payment system is already firmly established.

There is also another upcoming system called RTP, which is very similar to FedNow, but is governed not by the Fed, but privately by the The Clearing House, an association of large US banks. The piece above mentions that both implement ISO 20022, which could allow future interoperability.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#85
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all of Canada's chartered banking bureaucracy and lack of customer empathy ... I have to say that our e-transfer system is pretty amazing. For business or personal, one-off or regular transfers. It just works.

I always have an awkward delay with interac transfers when doing in-person. like "so, what do you think of those jays" bla bla for several minutes. Works great when the transaction is not 100% live though.

Ha. Interesting. I do a lot of e-transfers but I don't think I've ever needed instant, on-the-spot confirmation so I've never noticed that! Noted!

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#86

I've always wondered why big banks don't implement a lot more technologies, and I guess this gets to some of it. But it does seem like banks would have the incentives to kill services like Venmo and Stripe overnight. Like why are there not clear and straightforward banking APIs that let me create virtual cards and why doesn't my app let me just transfer money directly to my friend's bank account (I get global being a…

Plenty of banks are competing with Venmo and Cashapp. They use Zelle[1], it's zero-fee and included in most bank apps already. But it's not intended for business payments like Stripe or PayPal, or Venmo for business. [1] https://www.zellepay.com/get-started

Zelle is a mess. I can't wait for FedNow deployments.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#87

I've always wondered why big banks don't implement a lot more technologies, and I guess this gets to some of it. But it does seem like banks would have the incentives to kill services like Venmo and Stripe overnight. Like why are there not clear and straightforward banking APIs that let me create virtual cards and why doesn't my app let me just transfer money directly to my friend's bank account (I get global being a…

Instant bank transfers are coming to the US now, literally this month. It's called FedNow and RTP.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#88
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you mean interac? If not, could you provide more context please?

Probably Interac E-Transfer, yeah. I can’t think of any other. I use it all the time. Free. You send it to an email address, and then the recipient accesses it through their bank account with the password you gave them. Max $3000. Can sometimes take 10 mins to appear so it’s not great if you’re standing there trying to buy an CX990 elliptical from someone…

It is not universally free unfortunately.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#89
post #87

I've always wondered why big banks don't implement a lot more technologies, and I guess this gets to some of it. But it does seem like banks would have the incentives to kill services like Venmo and Stripe overnight. Like why are there not clear and straightforward banking APIs that let me create virtual cards and why doesn't my app let me just transfer money directly to my friend's bank account (I get global being a…

Instant bank transfers are coming to the US now, literally this month. It's called FedNow and RTP.

For some history, the biggest US banks built Zelle as a consortium because the Fed didn’t, and the Fed built FedNow because Congress didn’t want community banks beholden to the big banks for access to this capability.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method (2021)

#90

Most Americans don’t realize how atrocious the US banking system is when it comes to technology and transfers. It’s embarrassingly bad. Shameful, even.

I agree, but I also am not sure how much it matters. I think the US banking system would get better if it had to, but it doesn't, because we have credit cards, Venmo, Cash App, Zelle, etc. It does certainly suck for lower-income folks or people with bad credit who don't have great access to these things. There are also a lot of unbanked people in the US, but that's in some ways a separate issue.

Yes, things like wire transfers are annoying (and stressful), but most people do them only very rarely (like when buying a house). ACH is slow and a dumb protocol, but that's often a "set it and forget it" thing when you set up autopay for your electric utility or credit card or whatever, or set up direct deposit for a new employer.

Meanwhile, I can do 80% of the money-moving things I need to do with my phone, 19% with a little piece of plastic I always have on me, and the remaining 1% (or less, really) is mostly cash, with some teeny tiny fraction being wire transfers. I expect my situation isn't entirely typical (as I live in a large city and do a lot of my transactions on the internet). I'm sure many Americans use cash a lot more than I do (either out of necessity or desire), but it's... really not that bad?

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