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WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

developer.wordpress.org

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Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lern to code (at least a little bit) and if not ... Contao. CSS isn't considered "coding"

Most of the gatekeeping of what is and isn't "coding" is done by novices who don't really know what they're talking about. Beginners tend to want a hard line with "coding" on one side and "not coding" on the other, but that's not a very useful way to model interactions with computers. It's more of a spectrum of complexity, with WhatsApp on one side and full-blown software engineering on the other. In the middle is a…

> Most of the gatekeeping of what is and isn't "coding" is done by novices who don't really know what they're talking about. Beginners tend to want a hard line with "coding" on one side and "not coding" on the other, but that's not a very useful way to model interactions with computers.

I disagree. There's a meaningful distinction between what is code and what is formatting because the concerns are quite different. This distinction is more apparent on frontend applications where the code bits are actually dealing with the fact that there's a single process doing all these seemingly asynchronous things, the use of very infrastructure-like components (eg: pubsub implementations, stores, etc). Formatting and design doesn't need to deal with the how, it needs to deal with the why. The powerhouse of a developer is knowing both.

Trying to shoehorn peoples attitudes into discriminatory experience levels based on your perception of that rhetoric is an odd behavior unto itself. These topics merit talking about because ultimately they affect how we think, reason, and organize on different layers of projects.

You actually somewhat proved my point with your example of CSS. It more recently became capable of more "code like" qualities, but it can definitely be used for just styling and formatting. Without discussion someone may never know the difference or why you'd use some of CSSs computational capabilities. Another crossover is YAML; YAML can be very markup language oriented but it also supports aliases, pointers, etc.

Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#52
post #17
post #3

WordPress was where I got my start, a while ago now. From poking around with PHP files, to building my own things, to Django, and on. It would have been inconceivable back then (mid noughties) that the whole thing could be done client side. The Web has come on a long way. These days I tend to hate WordPress with a passion. Occasionally I will be asked to peek at some technical problem with a WordPress installation an…

Wordpress is one of those things I've plenty of experience with, but leave off my résumé and avoid mentioning to bosses and colleagues, so I won't get roped into that bullshit if it comes up—and it often does , sooner or later. "Wordpress? I can take a look if you need me to, but I don't really know much about that. I think Fred said something about Wordpress the other day, maybe ask him...." I've known others who co…

>Plus the PHP market, and especially the Wordpress market, doesn't tend to do great in the compensation department

WordPress work certainly doesn't pay a lot, but for PHP in general there's a large cavern in the middle. You can get very, very high salaries/contract rates as someone experienced with PHP if you are extremely experienced with PHP - specifically because so few people are willing to stick with it to that point. There are just a lot of legacy systems in very large companies that run on it.

So if you already have the experience, it can be worth it. If you don't, then trying to get mid level or even "low senior" PHP jobs probably isn't worth it compared to another skillset.

Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#53
post #6
post #3

WordPress was where I got my start, a while ago now. From poking around with PHP files, to building my own things, to Django, and on. It would have been inconceivable back then (mid noughties) that the whole thing could be done client side. The Web has come on a long way. These days I tend to hate WordPress with a passion. Occasionally I will be asked to peek at some technical problem with a WordPress installation an…

What no-code alternative would you recommend for pro web designers?

You can't design anything in WordPress without code. Unless you count installing a theme as "design".

If you're a pro web designer you should know CSS. Then there's some good alternatives.

Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#54
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you... asking when you'll get a feature in PHP while not knowing it employs sigils on variable names?

Maybe, it's redundant to waste my seconds of life. One second to write. Some seconds to read and parse those $$$.

What a bizarre attitude to have. You could also save tons of seconds by not using indents in Python or brackets in JS. But then you would also not have working code.

Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#55
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wordpress operates a plugin & theme marketplace. This could be very nice as a way to demo those products without adding meaningful infrastructure development and operational expenses. [EDIT]: Very nice for WP/Automattic and the people who develop plugins to sell on that marketplace, that is.

The infra cost can be very tiny tho. Digital ocean has 1 click installers for WordPress, which you can use for a few hours and then shutdown and only pay a few pennies.

Now you have to build or configure a system for spinning those up and down at the command of anonymous visitors to your website. Or eat the cost of running a whole bunch of them all the time. And test that system. And monitor it. And secure it (and no matter how well you do that, you're now exposed to a wider set of risks than you were if you hadn't built this thing). And do maintenance development as dumb crap happens under & around you ("fucking [vendor] API broke on us again, with what was allegedly just a bugfix update, that they rolled out at local midnight on a Saturday without warning..."). And have another thing to look at & talk about in budgeting discussions and spending audits.

Yes, of course you can do it, and the cost of running it may be low, but the cost of bandwidth transfer to send the files to browsers so they can run these instead is probably a lot lower, and saves 100%[1] of that initial and ongoing development & operational spending. There's a largish complexity cost to the whole thing, that's all but completely absent if you run it in the browser instead.

The raw cost of running ephemeral VMs isn't the meat of the expenses I meant.

[1, edit] OK, not 100% exactly because they did have to develop this thing the link is about, but that's also a thing that can be used for other stuff, too, not just yet another way to press a button and spin up a cheap VM running Wordpress—this is a unique product, potentially, with many uses, one application of which happens to be filling the role of providing live demos in Automattic's theme/plugin marketplace.

Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#56

WordPress exposes a huge divide in the HN crowd: - one group recognizes WordPress for what it is: a value-multiplier used by non-coders for websites so they don't have to deal with the coding and can focus on their core competencies - the other group hates WordPress because of the ugly codebase, and meanders off to work on their own perfectly formatted, ultra-scalable code that has no little to no value because it's…

This is a reasonable position and with the utility sites I build for, say, bands I play with I totally agree. I toss some shit on commodity hosting and hope the band breaks up before the gcal integration breaks.

-=-=-=

However.

I will now take this opportunity to vent a bit, though it has little to do with your imminently reasonable post. Mostly because I am procrastinating on porting a 3rd-party SSO system from a very old and shitty WP site to a new and shitty WP site and it's hurting my brain to decide how much of the mess of jQuery and bootstrap I really need to keep.

So hopefully this will be understood as venting and not a personal attack against your reasonable observation.

-=-=-=-

Consider that there are those of us who have to fix the first group's problems and make things keep working so they don't have to care how the sausage is made.

That is to say, there is a very real third group of folks: those of us who support the first group.

=-=-=-

I've been doing that work for about 14 years for all kinds of folks. I host 300 or so WP sites for a mid-sized university, I built and maintain a .gov site for a three-letter-agency, and I've built plenty of react-based blocks (across 3 majorly different patterns because the GB team doesn't give a fuck about anything, as far as I can tell).

I've worked on every element of WP from deploying servers to fixing CSS so it works in IE6, to scraping non-availible CMSs so that I can migrate thousands of pages and tens of thousands of images to WP. I've written plenty of WPCLI commands to do dumb tasks, I've written plenty of shit-tier code to make, say, calendar events propagate across the bad-for-most-purposes multisite functionality.

=-=-=-

Someone has to know how the sausage is made. I do.

And I know the difference between the teetering pile of steaming crap that is WP.

I've worked on actually useful codebases in my life with tooling that is easy and databases that are grokkable. I am aware that other platforms have issues, and have encountered them in my work.

However, WP is really bad.

And I have no problem bitching about it- I'm burnt the hell out and am about ready just quit and live in my truck and play music.

It's a shitty platform, and people do not pay well to keep it working.

=-=-

So anyhow, yeah, you've got a fair point, but there those of us who, because of circumstance, keep heading back into the burning building that is WP and our collective hatred of the platform is well-founded.

Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#57

"Whether you want to build a note-taking application for mobile devices, an automated testing environment, or demo a live WooCommerce store on your site – Playground will support you." The last two make a ton of sense, but the idea of building a mobile app that's powered by Wordpress running PHP in webassembly in the browser is wrecking my brain.

It makes complete sense. Php web stack is very light compared to Python/node, so it makes sense it can be embedded in the browser.

Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#58
post #52
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wordpress is one of those things I've plenty of experience with, but leave off my résumé and avoid mentioning to bosses and colleagues, so I won't get roped into that bullshit if it comes up—and it often does , sooner or later. "Wordpress? I can take a look if you need me to, but I don't really know much about that. I think Fred said something about Wordpress the other day, maybe ask him...." I've known others who co…

>Plus the PHP market, and especially the Wordpress market, doesn't tend to do great in the compensation department WordPress work certainly doesn't pay a lot, but for PHP in general there's a large cavern in the middle. You can get very, very high salaries/contract rates as someone experienced with PHP if you are extremely experienced with PHP - specifically because so few people are willing to stick with it to that…

Yeah, I know there exist high-paying PHP jobs, it's just that finding a PHP job that pays as much as Swift or C# or Java or Javascript or [insert almost anything else here] is usually relatively challenging.

I don't mean that there are zero people making good money in PHP, just that it requires flying a rather tricker and less-certain course to get there, than with other options.

I really might put PHP top-of-page—at least, in some contexts—if marketing myself as a high-priced contractor, for the reasons you mention... but, in hunting for ordinary jobs, I no longer even bother looking at PHP listings. Too much chaff, not enough wheat, and it's been like that for a decade or more. Just way easier to find an employer with compatible pay expectations, with other languages, if we're talking run-of-the-mill jobs. Shorter searches, more-consistent outcomes.

Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#59

Php & WordPress were fun. With that ugly php tag you could get pretty much everything working on the web. All you had to do was edit, save & refresh. No rebuild of code, server restart, compiling Just edit & save. Did it have the tendency to get ugly? Sure. But it was easy, quick and fast. Not every blog and needs a git flow, united, e2e, type-safe double encrypted dev environment. Both PHP & WordPress got shamed for…

> All you had to do was edit, save & refresh. No rebuild of code, server restart, compiling Just edit & save.

The majority of webdev is either exactly like that, or effectively like that with very fast rebuilds/restarts. It's not really something unique to PHP.

In fact in your modern stack you'd probably have autosave, and most importantly "fast refresh", so you don't need to manually refresh and you don't lose state.

Re: WordPress Playground: A WordPress that runs entirely in the browser

#60
Reporting from a budget Android Tablet with Firefox, the response times aren't exactly instantaneous but aren't any different than running full LAMP on a reasonable cloud instance or VPS which is surprising to say the least.

Also imagine the software layers at play here. Whole PHP Interpreter plus whole thousands of lines from WordPress codebase plus SQLite.

Amazing when that's all so much totally useable.

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