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A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

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Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#51

Post by c-hendricks »

more_corn wrote: post #48
c-hendricks wrote: post #40

> Nor was I satisfied with the obligatory secular follow-up, that you have to "make your own meaning." > ... > I mostly adopted the attitude of ... existence is fundamentally playful. Sounds like you've made your own meaning! > This may be nihilism It's not. Literally, nihilism ends at "life / existence has no meaning". Trying to put a positive or negative spin on it takes it away from nihilism. Or, positive nihilism…

I disagree with this definition of nihilism.

Howso? Not attacking, curious what your definition of nihilism is.

I don't know the proper term, but nihilism, as a word, stops itself short. I almost think "nihilists" are like centrists, they need to shit or get off the pot

Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#52

Post by ryanklee »

c-hendricks wrote: post #40

> Nor was I satisfied with the obligatory secular follow-up, that you have to "make your own meaning." > ... > I mostly adopted the attitude of ... existence is fundamentally playful. Sounds like you've made your own meaning! > This may be nihilism It's not. Literally, nihilism ends at "life / existence has no meaning". Trying to put a positive or negative spin on it takes it away from nihilism. Or, positive nihilism…

There is a whole strain of nihilism called positive nihilism initiated (explicitly) by Nietzsche.

Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#53

Post by maxbond »

adasdasdas wrote: post #44
maxbond wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "real nihilist" might kill themselves (hey, is anyone needs to hear this, don't kill yourself, and definitely don't kill yourself because of a thought experiment [1]), but most of the nihilists I've met have adjusted to their perspective and responded to it in a healthy way. (I'm not gunnuh engage in a Scotsman argument about whether that's disqualifying. But I'll grant there's an obvious survivorship bias there.)…

Well that's why I believe most nihilists aren't actually nihilists. Also, I don't think believing in meaning has anything to do with nihilism. In fact, the sentence kind of implies you are speaking of objective meaning which is what grinds my gears.

> Well that's why I believe most nihilists aren't actually nihilists.

Let's suppose for a moment you're mistaken. How would you recognize evidence to the contrary, were you to receive it? If you met a nihilist, you'd dismiss them, right? It's an approximately unfalsifiable construction.

> Also, I don't think believing in meaning has anything to do with nihilism.

It seems like you call it "purpose" and I called it "meaning?" I'm a bit confused on that point. Am I misusing terminology?

> In fact, the sentence kind of implies you are speaking of objective meaning which is what grinds my gears.

I meant meaning writ large, subjective or objective. If there's a different phrasing that wouldn't have contained this unintended implication I'm open to suggestions.

An example of a line of thinking you might accept; a nihilist could decide go on living, just because they feel like it. It's entirely rational (and let me be clear, you don't need to avoid suicide on rational grounds anyway, it's entirely acceptable not to kill yourself for arational reasons) to decide you don't want to die because you're curious about what will happen if you don't, or because you think it would be an unpleasant endeavor, or because you've just adopted it as an axiom that you should go on living without any justification. There is no contradiction there.

Really, presupposing that a life of suffering should be ended is asserting the existence of a meaning to life, just a negative one instead of a positive one.

Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#54

Post by ryanklee »

JumpinJack_Cash wrote: post #49

Everybody in this thread better forget all this BS if they want a shot at happiness and satisfaction. Go lift weights and stop living inside your head, we were never made to be so comfortable to have time to ponder these concepts

It's important to touch grass, yes, but dismissing the project of figuring this stuff out is unwise. There is a reason that these problems keep coming up for people, and it's not because they aren't hitting the gym enough.

Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#55

Post by lisper »

disadvantage wrote: post #17

> In lieu of meaning, I mostly adopted the attitude of Alan Watts. Existence, he says, is fundamentally playful. It's less like a journey, and more like a piece of music or a dance. And the point of dancing isn't to arrive at a particular spot on the floor; the point of dancing is simply to dance. Vonnegut expresses a similar sentiment when he says, "We are here on Earth to fart around." Ikigai[0] is worth exploring…

> We are here on Earth to fart around.

Except that we're not. We are here on earth to make copies of our DNA. There are some ancillary effects of this (like sex and eating and the internet) but it's not like life doesn't have a purpose at all. It's just not a particularly hifallutin' one.

Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#56

Post by adasdasdas »

YellOh wrote: post #50
adasdasdas wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes back to the answer to the question of, "what is the meaning of life", or its darker brother of a question "why bother living when you can kill yourself and end the suffering". A Christian might respond with, "God tells me to live and spread the gospel, raise children, and feed the needy". A Christian will tell you that this is how you ought to think too because all truth comes from the bible, which is why I c…

Seems like a weirdly stringent test for nihilism. If a nihilist believes there is no meaning in living but also no meaning in dying, why would they default to dying? A lot of built-in taboos (e.g. against bodily damage) make living a "default" human choice, and unless you're also burying the assumption that without meaning one should actively seek death as soon as possible(?), it seems like nihilists could keep ridin…

When I think of nihilism, I think of depressed people who can't pick themselves up to do anything because of a feeling of hopelessness, or a man experiencing a mid life crisis wondering what he's worked so hard for. These people often resort unhealthy coping mechanisms or even worse, suicide.

Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#57

Post by c-hendricks »

ryanklee wrote: post #52
c-hendricks wrote: post #40

> Nor was I satisfied with the obligatory secular follow-up, that you have to "make your own meaning." > ... > I mostly adopted the attitude of ... existence is fundamentally playful. Sounds like you've made your own meaning! > This may be nihilism It's not. Literally, nihilism ends at "life / existence has no meaning". Trying to put a positive or negative spin on it takes it away from nihilism. Or, positive nihilism…

There is a whole strain of nihilism called positive nihilism initiated (explicitly) by Nietzsche.

"However, Nietzsche thought of nihilism as a disease, calling it ‘pathological.’ He argued that we should strive to rid ourselves of it."

So if Nietzsche argued we should use "positive" (/active) adjective to rid ourselves of nihilism, wouldn't that mean that putting a positive spin on it removes the nihilism?

Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#58

Post by fatfingerd »

lisper wrote: post #55
disadvantage wrote: post #17

> In lieu of meaning, I mostly adopted the attitude of Alan Watts. Existence, he says, is fundamentally playful. It's less like a journey, and more like a piece of music or a dance. And the point of dancing isn't to arrive at a particular spot on the floor; the point of dancing is simply to dance. Vonnegut expresses a similar sentiment when he says, "We are here on Earth to fart around." Ikigai[0] is worth exploring…

> We are here on Earth to fart around. Except that we're not. We are here on earth to make copies of our DNA. There are some ancillary effects of this (like sex and eating and the internet) but it's not like life doesn't have a purpose at all. It's just not a particularly hifallutin' one.

You won't fill the role of farting around for much more than a day, a month or a century without taking certain respective steps.

Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#59

Post by [deleted] »

adasdasdas wrote: post #29
CoastalCoder wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This topic interests me, but I've never really studied it. Would you mind sketching out your take on it?

It goes back to the answer to the question of, "what is the meaning of life", or its darker brother of a question "why bother living when you can kill yourself and end the suffering". A Christian might respond with, "God tells me to live and spread the gospel, raise children, and feed the needy". A Christian will tell you that this is how you ought to think too because all truth comes from the bible, which is why I c…

[deleted]

Re: A Nihilist's Guide to Meaning (2016)

#60

Post by JumpinJack_Cash »

ryanklee wrote: post #54
JumpinJack_Cash wrote: post #49

Everybody in this thread better forget all this BS if they want a shot at happiness and satisfaction. Go lift weights and stop living inside your head, we were never made to be so comfortable to have time to ponder these concepts

It's important to touch grass, yes, but dismissing the project of figuring this stuff out is unwise. There is a reason that these problems keep coming up for people, and it's not because they aren't hitting the gym enough.

It's because people are too comfortable, we evolved to think about the next 24 hours, not the next 24 billion years.

If you didn't do the former you'd literally die, now that's not true anymore, but it doesn't mean that we are equipped to do the latter, and in fact those who try always end up with a huge burden of anxiety and unhappiness.

The same mental energies should be focused back again on the next 24 hours. We are not at risk of death in the next 24 hours anymore, but we should be able to find the subtle differences that make our day better.

A better brand of coffee, exercise, walking the dog, talk to strangers, join a club or a sports team etc.

It's not that grandiose compared to discovering the true nature of reality or the writing the "guide to meaning" (whatever the fuck that means) , but at least it's real, actionable and doable, NOW!

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