On Becoming a VP of Engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#111

Post by Aurornis » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

gampleman wrote: post #7

> If I went looking for another startup to join at some point in the future, I would specifically look for an exec team or founding team that could cite examples of building up high performers for internal promotions — and swiftly recognizing and rewarding those already having impact outside of their role-defined scope. Yeah in my experience this seems very rare. The default in most start ups I've seen is that when a…

> The default in most start ups I've seen is that when a new level in the hierarchy becomes necessary and/or available (i.e. the existing person leaves) is to hire externally.

Count me among the people burned by this.

I joined a startup with promises of being promoted when the department grew. I was required to hit certain performance metrics, which I exceeded. Then it came time to hire and suddenly the position was only open to people with oddly specific qualifications I didn't have (example: required an MBA or experience at company greater than # in size, where the # was chosen to be just barely more than the biggest company I had worked for)

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#112

Post by wpietri » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 3:46 PM UTC

will_gottschalk wrote: post #4

A quote really jumped out at me: > VPs of Engineering from frontend backgrounds are relatively rare, and it’s partly because the most pressing technical challenges a startup faces are often around scaling, reliability, and backend architecture. If we had been dealing with nonstop incidents, constant struggles with scaling, and major architectural challenges with our query and storage engine, someone with deeper backe…

> I’ve worked at companies in the past where frontend is looked down upon because all of our leaders are backend/infra people.

I think there's a lot going on here, but one of them is definitely gender. Front-end development is often feminine-coded and seen as lesser. E.g.:

https://thoughtbot.com/blog/tailwind-and-the-femininity-of-c...

I also think in tech-land we tend to associate leadership with male-coded traits. So it's not shocking at all to me that leadership and front-end backgrounds are often seen as somehow incompatible.

And I think that same sort of gender dynamic is relevant to the code, too. For me, part of what makes for good code is that it's good for others, good for collaboration. But if you're going to be a macho big-swinging-dick alpha nerd tech bro, then that can involve performing genius via solo cowboy coding. There the goal isn't to work closely with a team to make something together, it's to be a visibly amazing IC with upper management written all over him.

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#113

Post by wpietri » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 3:52 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #110

wpietri wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agreed with this: "I've always felt that hierarchical, subservient thinking is strange" On the one hand, we are social primates. And primates gonna prime. But I personally have very little interest in hierarchy; it mainly seems irritating and counterproductive to me. Obviously, looking around at the world, I'm a outlier here. But perhaps the strangest thing to me is how often neurotypical people can't even ta…

I think it was Marc Andreessen who said it that you’d rather be upfront with hierarchy than to pretend it doesn’t exist and have it form chaotically and without control. I remember reading about some flat team structure at Gore Inc. in the 90’s and it was an epic failure. Military relies on it more explicitly when you really need to get things done. In abstract sense, the military is more similar to companies than be…

Yeah, you might enjoy reading "Tyranny of Structurelessness". But there are other options besides "controlling hierarchy", "secret, denied controlling hierarchy", and "chaotic failure".

Just as an example, consider a party. When I host, I am very definitely in charge. It's my space, it's my party. Friends will often help, serving as an intermediate hierarchical layer. But this hierarchy is mostly supportive, not controlling. I may slip into control mode when, say, I have a bad guest who needs to be ejected. But most of the magic happens not because I'm in charge, but because I've created a space for more dynamic interactions to arise without interference.

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#114

Post by mariusmg » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 3:53 PM UTC

yawnxyz wrote: post #6

> While Charity has deep experience in the domains of infrastructure & operations, databases, and backend engineering, I come originally from design, frontend, and product engineering, and I take a particular joy in collaborating with product management and ux design. I had trouble figuring what they actually did, and what they currently do in their VP role. There's a lot of lip service, but it's not entirely clear w…

>There's a ton of words on here but I don't really know what it says

Welcome to management.

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#115

Post by spencerchubb » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 3:54 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #15

I found this part amusing: "Charity [company founder] has a more intuitive, spontaneous style, often shines brightest in a crisis, is allergic to checklists". It looks like an almost inadvertent admission. In other words, the founder doesn't have the qualifications or characteristics that the underlings assume they need to be in a leadership position. I automatically become CEO, CTO, etc., by starting my own company,…

You don't "just" become the CEO of a big company. You become the CEO of a small company (typically 1 to 3 people)

Then you make a boatload of money, and the market decides whether you get to become the CEO of a big company.

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#116

Post by lapcat » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

epups wrote: post #102

lapcat wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re forgetting that companies need both Visionary AND Execution focused leaders at the very top. I'm not forgetting. And I'm not claiming that this promotion was a mistake. I am raising questions about the narrative that the author is telling/selling. Consider how you'll likely not see such a long-winded post from company founders explaining in detail why they chose themselves for their own jobs. They founded a…

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. You can go and start your company any time, sure, but I would much rather be a VP in a medium sized startup than a founder. And to get to VP, even in a small organisation, you certainly need competence.

> And to get to VP, even in a small organisation, you certainly need competence.

I don't know if I agree with that. Anyway, competence comes at various levels.

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#117

Post by lapcat » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

spencerchubb wrote: post #115

lapcat wrote: post #15

I found this part amusing: "Charity [company founder] has a more intuitive, spontaneous style, often shines brightest in a crisis, is allergic to checklists". It looks like an almost inadvertent admission. In other words, the founder doesn't have the qualifications or characteristics that the underlings assume they need to be in a leadership position. I automatically become CEO, CTO, etc., by starting my own company,…

You don't "just" become the CEO of a big company. You become the CEO of a small company (typically 1 to 3 people) Then you make a boatload of money, and the market decides whether you get to become the CEO of a big company.

Everyone knows this. It's unclear why you felt the need to say it.

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#118

Post by maxk42 » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #42

marcinzm wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>After a while you merit your position by not running the company into the ground, but instead making it succeed. That's not merit for the position but not being a five alarm dumpster fire at the position. There is a difference. As long as the company is lucky or there's enough overall competence in leadership or they hired the right employees that incompetence may not be destroy the company. That doesn't mean they'r…

Most startups fail. You need to be good to succeed.

On the contrary: I've seen more companies succeed despite their management than because of it.

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#119

Post by barbariangrunge » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #36

eru wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I automatically become CEO, CTO, etc., by starting my own company, and this is true of anyone who started their own companies, including the ones that are now BigCos. Founders don't need any specific qualifications or characteristics to merit their positions. If you are involved in starting a company, you _get_ the position of CEO, CTO, etc essentially arbitrarily. That's initially. After a while you merit your pos…

>After a while you merit your position by not running the company into the ground, but instead making it succeed. That's not merit for the position but not being a five alarm dumpster fire at the position. There is a difference. As long as the company is lucky or there's enough overall competence in leadership or they hired the right employees that incompetence may not be destroy the company. That doesn't mean they'r…

Almost all new businesses fail. Calling every one of those failed founders, Eg, of coffee shops, or software companies, or board game stores, a dumpster fire—is an asshole move

Re: On Becoming a VP of Engineering

#120

Post by Aurornis » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

wiradikusuma wrote: post #38

I'm a CTO of a venture-backed startup. My observations: - Most people in high positions are smart. I put cunning in the same category :) But there are many equally smart people who are not in high positions, because.. - They don't have the chance (either by design or by choice). - You can have a better chance by starting your own business. Nobody starts a business with the intention of getting a VP job in another com…

These are all great points.

One thing I've learned is that when you see companies promoting and hiring executives for a lot of reasons other than merit, it's time to start looking for a new job.

I didn't realize during the interview, but my last company's VP and higher positions were almost exclusively held by people who had connections to the CEO, regardless of their qualifications.

There were a handful of people who were promoted out of merit, or logically as part of acquisitions. They were steadily replaced and or demoted to make room for more of the C-level executives' friends and even family members over time.

One C-level executive I enjoyed working with was demoted to a VP title and the CEO's long time friend took his C-level position. The demoted C-level executive had years of experience at some of the biggest names in the industry. He had also uprooted his family and moved across the country for this position. His replacement had no experience in the industry. The VP was asked to stay around and "allowed" to keep his stock options to help the CEO's old friend learn the position and take over.

Opened my eyes to the realities of nepotism and loyalty in some companies.