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Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

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Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#71

Post by steve_adams_86 »

dkh wrote: post #64
vanderZwan wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unmedicated, I cannot usually even read more than a few pages of a book before either losing focus or feeling drained Tangent: ADHD is strange. I have it too, and yet when it comes to reading my symptoms appear to be the exact opposite (when I was younger I could not stop reading books until I finished them, even if I ended up skipping an entire night of sleep for it). I wouldn't be surprised if in the next decades…

What you describe is how I was when I was younger, too. I read everything, I read pretty fast, and I could read for hours on end. That is no longer the case at all, and I'm uncertain when or why it changed so drastically. (The "when" is tough to pinpoint because for much of my early 20s I wasn't doing much reading, and it's possible that the "why" is related to some change my brain underwent during/because of that.)

I lost my reading tendency when life got harder. The urgency and anxiety around keeping up with everyday life made activities like reading almost unsettling slow and “unproductive”.

I realized that and did something about it, but I didn’t allow myself to enjoy a book for around 10 years. Not sure if that resonates with you (I hope not!) but I figured I’d mention it just in case. I was totally unaware of what I was doing at the time.

Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#72

Post by branko_d »

dkh wrote: post #16

As an engineer for 10+ years with pretty severe ADHD (unmedicated, I cannot usually even read more than a few pages of a book before either losing focus or feeling drained) I have always been aware of how much my performance fluctuates based on the cognitive load of dealing with the code I am currently working with, and how it is displayed. I half-jokingly tend to describe it to people as having a "small brain buffer…

> I half-jokingly tend to describe it to people as having a "small brain buffer"

The good news is that "smallness of bran buffer" doesn't matter very much if you are trying to implement anything non-trivial. Most useful software is so complex that it's impossible to keep all of it in your head in any case. But we can divide and conquer complexity without holding too much in our limited human heads at any single moment in time.

The real art is how you divide and conquer. Having a bigger "buffer" merely delays (slightly) the point at which you have no other choice but to start doing just that.

Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#73

Post by dagmx »

branko_d wrote: post #72
dkh wrote: post #16

As an engineer for 10+ years with pretty severe ADHD (unmedicated, I cannot usually even read more than a few pages of a book before either losing focus or feeling drained) I have always been aware of how much my performance fluctuates based on the cognitive load of dealing with the code I am currently working with, and how it is displayed. I half-jokingly tend to describe it to people as having a "small brain buffer…

> I half-jokingly tend to describe it to people as having a "small brain buffer" The good news is that "smallness of bran buffer" doesn't matter very much if you are trying to implement anything non-trivial. Most useful software is so complex that it's impossible to keep all of it in your head in any case. But we can divide and conquer complexity without holding too much in our limited human heads at any single momen…

I disagree. It really does matter if you have any afflictions that exacerbate it.

It maybe doesn’t matter for relative performance versus other developers but it does matter for the individual.

Having frequent context switches just to keep on top of your work can be really draining.

How much it matters also really depends on the languages you’re working in. Taking a couple languages I use regularly for example:

Python (or any dynamic language ), as much as I enjoy it, can be a nightmare because of how dynamic it is. You have to keep way more of any given app in your head at a time.

Rust by comparison (or any similarly static language) is much easier for me to just focus on the very local code without caring about the rest.

Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#74

Post by bluesquared »

dkh wrote: post #64
vanderZwan wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unmedicated, I cannot usually even read more than a few pages of a book before either losing focus or feeling drained Tangent: ADHD is strange. I have it too, and yet when it comes to reading my symptoms appear to be the exact opposite (when I was younger I could not stop reading books until I finished them, even if I ended up skipping an entire night of sleep for it). I wouldn't be surprised if in the next decades…

What you describe is how I was when I was younger, too. I read everything, I read pretty fast, and I could read for hours on end. That is no longer the case at all, and I'm uncertain when or why it changed so drastically. (The "when" is tough to pinpoint because for much of my early 20s I wasn't doing much reading, and it's possible that the "why" is related to some change my brain underwent during/because of that.)

I am exactly the same way. Was a voracious & fast reader throughout schooling up until college age. Officially diagnosed ADHD in college when the material became hard enough for me to not "brute force through with my raw intelligence anymore" (psychiatrist words, not mine) so I was likely masking all the way up through high school. Younger brother was diagnosed at a more typical age which made my late diagnosis easier.

I wonder if it has to do with the mental burden we start to accumulate in transitioning to adulthood. Much easier to hyperfocus on books when we don't have the weight of finances, careers, complex relationships, etc.

Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#75

Post by bredren »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #71
dkh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you describe is how I was when I was younger, too. I read everything, I read pretty fast, and I could read for hours on end. That is no longer the case at all, and I'm uncertain when or why it changed so drastically. (The "when" is tough to pinpoint because for much of my early 20s I wasn't doing much reading, and it's possible that the "why" is related to some change my brain underwent during/because of that.)

I lost my reading tendency when life got harder. The urgency and anxiety around keeping up with everyday life made activities like reading almost unsettling slow and “unproductive”. I realized that and did something about it, but I didn’t allow myself to enjoy a book for around 10 years. Not sure if that resonates with you (I hope not!) but I figured I’d mention it just in case. I was totally unaware of what I was do…

I was similar. Went through countless sci fi novels, Crichton’s complete works to the Admiral Thrawn series.

I found a hack into keeping up with my reading, which is to use a kindle with wireless page turner attached to a mechanical arm.

I’m able to fall asleep reading like I used to and slowly make my way through extended science fiction. The effort to read is very low, the last page always set.

I don’t often stay up way past bedtime from reading anymore, but it did happen this year for me reading Symphony of Secrets by Brendan Slocumb.

Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#76

Post by gtirloni »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #71
dkh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you describe is how I was when I was younger, too. I read everything, I read pretty fast, and I could read for hours on end. That is no longer the case at all, and I'm uncertain when or why it changed so drastically. (The "when" is tough to pinpoint because for much of my early 20s I wasn't doing much reading, and it's possible that the "why" is related to some change my brain underwent during/because of that.)

I lost my reading tendency when life got harder. The urgency and anxiety around keeping up with everyday life made activities like reading almost unsettling slow and “unproductive”. I realized that and did something about it, but I didn’t allow myself to enjoy a book for around 10 years. Not sure if that resonates with you (I hope not!) but I figured I’d mention it just in case. I was totally unaware of what I was do…

What did you do about it? If you don't mind expanding on that.

Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#77

Post by Natuerich »

dkh wrote: post #16

As an engineer for 10+ years with pretty severe ADHD (unmedicated, I cannot usually even read more than a few pages of a book before either losing focus or feeling drained) I have always been aware of how much my performance fluctuates based on the cognitive load of dealing with the code I am currently working with, and how it is displayed. I half-jokingly tend to describe it to people as having a "small brain buffer…

[dead]

Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#78

Post by ilc »

bloopernova wrote: post #34

I have ADD and I'm struggling to write a more complex Python app right now. I'm hating myself for not being able to easily skip around the code as it gets more complex with more classes and methods. So this is very apropos for me. Thing is, I can skip around Terraform much more easily (in my normal DevOps role). I'm wondering if Python whitespace isn't "right" for me somehow. EDIT: I'm definitely more used to Terrafo…

I'll do you one better.

Learn to use search tooling. My neovim setup has ripgrep + a LSP on hand at all times. You can do the same things in VSCode.

If you don't know where something is... search, search, search. 2000 lines or 2 million lines. Searching cuts the mental load because you find what you NEED at that moment.

Need to know what refers to this function or variable.. there's a click or key sequence for that.

And yeah, Python is a bit of a trip to read, the lack of braces makes it unique to parse, if you aren't used to it.

Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#79

Post by flir »

itronitron wrote: post #24
xyproto wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding solutions that work well for people with ADHD is also likely to have the added bonus of making everyone less stressed.

Absolutely, I assume that it's easier to measure adverse impacts on people with ADHD but I expect that reducing perceptual load will improve things for everyone else as well.

It's OXO Good Grips all over again.

Re: Effect of perceptual load on performance within IDE in people with ADHD symptoms

#80

Post by steve_adams_86 »

VHRanger wrote: post #51
rightbyte wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> flounder when debugging if I feel unable to visually see or mentally hold the entire problem in my head at once Surely this is a general problem and not specific to programmers with ADD? Or do you mean you are relatively worse at "needle sting debugging"? You second paragraph is just sane things in general. I wish your mindset was more common among my colleagues ...

ADHD is a quantitative disorder, not qualitative. To some extent, everyone gets mild versions of ADHD symptoms, especially if tired/bad nutrition/no exercise, etc. ADHD is when these symptoms harm quality of life significantly across many domains and since you were prepubescent (it's a brain malformation, not a series of bad habits)

To expand on that, I think it can be clarified somewhat by describing the mechanism at work.

People without ADHD have a generally-working motivation/reward system which is undergirded partially by dopamine. This neurotransmitter is relatively low in ADHD brains, which seems to lead to signal:noise issues. That’s likely a cause of having a highly distractible baseline state, but also leads to bursts of dopamine seeming more salient and arousing. You have a harder time regulating motivation and evaluating perceived rewards.

A lot of what happens in the brain is based on relative states. If your dopamine is always low, something making it spike will seem more interesting than it necessarily should. If your dopamine trends higher, you’re going to have an easier time regulating interest, motivation, and an ability to transition through things you need to do — particularly things you don’t want to do.

The inverse of a dopamine spike is a dopamine drop. This impacts the brain in important ways as well. In a person with ADHD, going from a high to a low can often cause serious declines in mood and energy. In a more typical brain, the same effects are present but less severe.

So while these are all normal challenges people face because they’re the product of the same brain mechanics, a low dopamine baseline makes these mechanics more extreme in people with ADHD. They are primed for distraction and clinging to things which increase their dopamine. This could be video games, relationships, drugs, hobbies, etc. It could even be work too. They’re also primed far harder falls from their highs. This extreme oscillation often means some aspect of life suffers due to a lack of balance. That’s why it can be a disability.

Hopefully that helps explain the quantitative aspect.

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