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VanMoof encryption key exporter

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Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#121

Post by Gasp0de »

tgv wrote: post #106
jillesvangurp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The appeal is that thieves need to do the same thing. Which limits the value of the bike for them because it makes it easy to track them down. It's part of the theft protection. Which, if you've ever had your bike stolen is a big selling point for these bikes. Theft is a reason why I've never bothered with premium bikes. Because you can't take them anywhere and expect them to not get stolen. Van Moof changed that. Th…

Idk the Berlin market, but in The Netherlands, homebase of Swapfiets (literally: swap bike) as you probably know, a decent secondhand bike costs €100-200. Nobody comes to fix your tire, but if it doesn't get stolen, it's a lot cheaper than a Swapfiets. Still quite a few of my (younger!) colleagues have a Swapfiets. I don't really get it.

Swapfiets business model are people who are not willing to do even the simplest maintenance tasks and therefore can not use any cheap or expensive bike longer than a few months. Astonishingly, this seems to be working great in the netherlands. In my hometown in germany, where 1/5 of the population are students, they tried but closed down again. My assumption is that this was due to the fact that it is common to repair your own bike here, the uni even has a bike workshop for the students.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#122

Post by rerx »

haspok wrote: post #91
mattio wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why everyone thinks they are expensive. Just the bike is about 2000 euro. There are eBikes costing 4000 euro. My van moof was about 2800 because I bought the 2 packages taking care of theft and repairs. Because of their image I never have to lock the bike besides their amazing kick lock bike, so getting on and off the bike with locking and unlocking it is a matter of seconds. This is not expensive at al…

They are expensive for what is essentially a commuter bike. I think they simply chose a wrong strategy, because if you have a cheap(ish) bike and a good U-lock, you can leave it anywhere without much stress. It will most probably not be stolen (because the value of the bike is low), and if it does get stolen, then it is cheap to replace - you can buy at least 5 commuter bikes for the price of a fancy one. In fact, in…

They wouldn't be expensive for that price if they used quality parts and assembled them well (I don't think VanMoof offered a good deal because those crucial aspects were lacking). The market for a quick city e-bike is a bit different than the one for a throwaway commuter bike. People pay for being faster and enjoying the ride. Accordingly, I would make sure such a bike is insured against theft and use a quality lock.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#123

Post by madeofpalk »

ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

It doesn't need an internet connection & app to unlock.

It needs an internet connection to initially get the bike's encryption keys. After that the app can communicate with the bike over bluetooth without internet access.

And then, you actually don't even need the app to unlock the bike. You can unlock the rear hub by entering a passcode physically on the bike without the app. Occasionally the app/bluetooth conked out and I had to unlock using the code.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#124

Post by crote »

Arnt wrote: post #23
wjnc wrote: post #3

Don’t buy products made by VC funded firms! Especially not if it’s a real product and you value repairability and service. VanMoof made losses the size of their revenue. They made bikes… where’s the natural monopoly to be chased there?

What did Van Moof make, exactly? Do you think they were normal bikes? They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features. They have features that make it possible to trace and locate them, and Van Moof would actually do this. For people who spend €3-4k on an easily stolen object that the police won't care about, that's a unique selling point.

An AirTag is $30. So yeah, what did they make?

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#125

Post by madeofpalk »

bicx wrote: post #22
benoliver999 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry about this with most components of e-bikes. I suppose a mid-drive one is probably always gonna have parts you can replace but custom kit like VanMoof seems ready for landfill.

My VanMoof is currently dead, awaiting to be shipped off to the VanMoof shop to supposedly replace a battery that is erroring out. Now I’m concerned that I’ll never be able to use it again, or that I’ll lose the bike completely if I hand it over to them for repairs just as they are being shuttered.

Heh. I just shipped my S3 to vanmoof 2 weeks ago and it was just repaired this week for what sounds like the same battery issue. I'm... not sure if I'll get it back either.

The website is telling me there's a charge for the shipping, but no way to pay it.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#126

Post by rerx »

foepys wrote: post #73
estomagordo wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not expensive at all. I mean, you can get a regular bike for €300, €700 if you want to splurge. But of course, the downside of that would be that you'd get more exercise.

Have the prices come down lately? When COVID hit, it was nearly impossible to find cheap new bikes.

Market changed. Bike vendors have a harder time unloading their inventory these days.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#127

Post by Gasp0de »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #29
ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

You don't need an internet connection or the app, but that's the most convenient way - you can enter a PIN on the bike itself to unlock it. I think the appeal (at least for me, I considered one but never got one) is that it makes the bike harder to steal. Someone can't just ride off on it after they cut your lock. I worry about leaving my $600 bike out in public, so I'd be super paranoid about a $2000+ bike.

How does it prevent the thief from riding away? Does it block the pedals using the motor or something?

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#128

Post by jaclaz »

arp242 wrote: post #30
aden1ne wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The build quality is so bad they are going under in warranty claims. They also don't use common components, so very few bike repair shops in high-volume markets (e.g. Netherlands) are willing to touch VanMoof bikes.

Apparently they spent €8M on warranty claims, on an income of €83M, so ~10% of their income. It's not really clear to me if this is exuberantly high, especially since this may also cover non-traditional "warranty" like their theft recovery.

I think it is crazy high, should be well below 1-2% for any "mature" (simple) product, for more complex products (let's say cars) it should be below 5%:

Cars: https://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20230511.html

Hvac/appliances: https://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20230706.html

But there are outliers (wind turbines):

https://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20230309.html

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#129

Post by madeofpalk »

jtwaleson wrote: post #42
yabatopia wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going from Vanmoof to Cowboy Bikes is like switching from the plague to cholera. Same modus operandi: excessively VC funded, lots of hype, proprietary parts, mounting losses, loosing money with every sale, ... and it's getting worse every year. Cowboy Bikes is just another bankruptcy waiting to happen.

I'm riding a Cowboy right now, and I chose it because they didn't have the service and quality issues that Vanmoof had. I've been very happy with it and hope they will not go under. I was annoyed with the app but I created a bluetooth key fob so I don't have to use the app to unlock it. Now I'm even happier with my daily rides. That being said: if I were in the market today I think I'd go for the Veloretti Ace. Less…

I have a Vanmoof in for repair which I may or may not get back, and I'm foolishly tempted by Cowboy.

I would like to get the Veloretti Ace, but they only sell it in three countries :/

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