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Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

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Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#291
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This looks like the episode of OddLots you're talking about: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-07/what-it-a... They talk about converting 180 Water St by adding an internal atrium; it's also one of the conversions illustrated in the recent NYT article about the difficulties of office-to-residential conversions: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office...

NYT article - gift link https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office... (The interactive nature doesn't quite get captured by archive correctly)

Thank you. You are right, that version is a lot better.

Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#292
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the Boston market this will still help everyone. My household is making north of 300k and was still having trouble bidding on home where there were dead cockroaches visible during the showing. It feels wrong to build luxury housing when regular folk are suffering but if you build luxury housing to the point that the rich stop bidding on regular housing, or even better there’s so much luxury housing that everyon…

It's not clear that you can meaningfully effect availability of "regular" housing by building any reasonable number of luxury homes. Slightly reducing the cost of luxury apartments may attract more buyers from outside the city, average the rate of vacancy may increase without the price going down much. They can be purchased by the rich to be used as unlicensed hotels aka airbnb. They can be ought up as "investments"…

> They can be purchased by the rich to be used as unlicensed hotels aka airbnb. They can be ought up as "investments" and not effectively rented out effectively enough as long as you don't build so much you literally flood the market.

There's a natural floor to this though. For example, if Boston built 3 housing units for every human being on the planet, there would hardly be any problem even if every person wanted to live in Boston and own multiple units. This is obviously absurd, but hints at the greater point. There's a point along the supply/demand curve where prices will end up falling, no matter how much external demand or AirBnb rentals come into the area.

The argument I think you're making is that there's no way to build enough housing units in a reasonable amount of time to meaningfully affect non-upper-end housing. There's not much controversy about that in practice (though weirdly enough there is a lot online.) California (and many Californian cities sweeten these deals) specifically offers developers many benefits for varying percentages of affordable housing mixes in their units. Boston also seems to have income-restricted housing as well. Most pro-housing policymakers agree that housing isn't just a build-build-build game but that incentives need to be offered to ensure affordable units are built along with upper end luxury housing.

Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#293
post #204

There was a cool OddLots episode recently where they talked to a guy who does Office to Residential work and some of the complexity. One thing he talked about, which I didn't know anyone did, was to actually cut through the ceiling/floorplate of buildings to basically "donut" them. This is necessary because many office floorplans are huge with modern HVAC and when converted into residential you end up with either und…

Why not put edge datacentres in the middle? They could provide heating to perimeter apartments in cold climates and just imagine the ping!

Very few humans live in places that need heat all year round.

Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear that you can meaningfully effect availability of "regular" housing by building any reasonable number of luxury homes. Slightly reducing the cost of luxury apartments may attract more buyers from outside the city, average the rate of vacancy may increase without the price going down much. They can be purchased by the rich to be used as unlicensed hotels aka airbnb. They can be ought up as "investments"…

Agree - it's the 'Trickle-down Effect' except with property instead of wealth.

No, it's just basic supply and demand.

Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#295
post #26

There's a very good NYT article with great visualizations on the process of and obstacles to converting office buildings to residential: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office...

I've been thinking about the office building in which I worked pre-pandemic. It's actually not that wide and could be converted into a residential tower without cutting any holes in it (we had about 5 metres worth of desks, then 3 metres of walking space around the building core housing the elevators, fire escapes and conference rooms), but the ceiling height would be an obstacle. A typical flat is 2.7m tall, 3m is a premium height. The office had ceilings that were at least 3.5m tall to absorb the noise of the open space.

Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#296
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if some interior spaces could be preserved for commercial, some reallocated for retail, some set aside for tenant mixed use areas. I don't get why one area can only ever be for one kind of use.

If you really want to know, I can't recommend the book "Seeing like a state" enough. TL;DR: For government officials who are charged with supervising regulations over tens of thousands of areas, it's already more than complicated enough if each of those areas has a single use designation. If you allow all of those to have multiple designations, it becomes too complex for humans to administer and so they don't allow m…

Mixed use zoning is already common throughout the world.

I don't understand these comments that act like they live on a different planet.

Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree - it's the 'Trickle-down Effect' except with property instead of wealth.

No, it's just basic supply and demand.

A definition of demand: Demand is an economic concept that relates to a consumer's desire to purchase goods and services and willingness to pay a specific price for them.

The poor do not have the willingness to pay a whole category of prices, as they are unable to finance it. Creating luxury accommodation can increase supply, but as the decrease in price does not necessarily put the older accommodation within reach, the owners of captial can choose to retain it.

Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#298
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This looks like the episode of OddLots you're talking about: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-07/what-it-a... They talk about converting 180 Water St by adding an internal atrium; it's also one of the conversions illustrated in the recent NYT article about the difficulties of office-to-residential conversions: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office...

The NYT article does a really good job explaining the difference between converting a prewar and a modern building. Also, TIL about loss factor: > As offices, these buildings can also rent 100 percent (or even more) of their total square footage, according to the quirky math of commercial real estate. https://therealdeal.com/magazine/new-york-february-2014/lies...

A well-known UK startup, renting an old building just outside of London, is (or was, as of a few years ago) paying square footage cost for an entire floor that doesn't exist. The previous occupants - a government department - had the floor removed to make for higher, grander internal ceiling heights.

Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#299
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

more supply = more competition, no?

I have never seen more supply of apartments make existing rents go down. I had a friend's rent go up 25% in one year in an area that has seen a huge amount of apartment buildings go up. That's not rational. The companies that own these apartment buildings care about nothing more than more money and know that they'll be able to find someone to pay the exhorbant prices.

That's because companies only build new housing in booming areas. Plus, it's incredibly rare to get a large amount of housing "at once" in a metropolitan area, such that you could see the effects.

IIRC, there are studies that show that places that built more housing had smaller price increases than economically comparable places that built less housing.

Re: Boston mayor announces residential conversion program for office buildings

#300
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the rest of the conversion, namely bathrooms and kitchens per unit and the required pipes, are also not cheap, to the point where if you wanted to rent out a lot of cheap units it would be easier to knock the building down and start anew.

> it would be easier to knock the building down and start anew. Idk where this meme started but it’s very far from reality. We as a species have only ever voluntarily demolished like 30 or so building above 35 stories because it’s insanely expensive to do so (most buildings were knocked down to make significantly larger ones in their place). In no world is it ever cheaper to tear down a high rise and start over. http…

My company used to work with a German startup that was based in Lübeck, one of the oldest towns in Germany[0].

They were in Old Town, which is on an island.

The building they originally occupied was over a thousand years old. They then modernized to one that was only eight hundred or so years old, then, eventually, they moved to the mainland, into new construction.

Sort of gives new meaning to “reuse.”

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lübeck

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