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VanMoof encryption key exporter

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Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#81

Post by cr1895 »

RajT88 wrote: post #43
jjav wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?

A buddy of mine is a hardcore rider. He goes through a $5k bike every 5 years or so. Could he refurb the titanium frames for newer parts? Maybe. At some point racing tech moves on and you need a newer frame for the latest and greatest stuff to fit.

>At some point racing tech moves on and you need a newer frame for the latest and greatest stuff to fit.

Sure, but that's utterly irrelevant to daily commuter / city bikes, which Van Moof are.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#82

Post by moooo99 »

skerit wrote: post #66
Arnt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did Van Moof make, exactly? Do you think they were normal bikes? They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features. They have features that make it possible to trace and locate them, and Van Moof would actually do this. For people who spend €3-4k on an easily stolen object that the police won't care about, that's a unique selling point.

> They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features My husband's VanMoof bike got stolen in Ghent, they couldn't do shit about it.

As far as I know the theft recovery is part of an additional package and not included with a regular purchase.

Certainly fun, but I think there are cheaper theft insurance policies out there.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#83

Post by sjaak »

xyst wrote: post #36

Wow - I was really looking forward to the VanMoof V. Shame to see them struggling financially. It was supposed to be delivered in December 2022. But it was eventually pushed back to end of this year (2023). Contemplating canceling my pre-order ($20-30?) now.

If you want one there are MANY second hand (cheap!) ones for sale on marktplaats.nl as we speak -- for reasons that don't need explaining :)

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#84

Post by lm28469 »

blackbeans wrote: post #71
jjav wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?

While what you are saying is true and the market is moving towards long term solutions because of environmental reasons, at the moment the lifespan of electric components in bikes is usually set at 5 years with 2 years of warranty for the consumer. Bikes are made of aluminium these days instead of steel, which gives them a lifespan of about 10 years, certainly not 30. If you buy an ebike, you must be prepared for mai…

> Bikes are made of aluminium these days instead of steel, which gives them a lifespan of about 10 years, certainly not 30.

Absolute bullshit, especially for a city bike.

Stress cycle is an issue but city bikes are over engineered and don't see a lot of stress compared to every other type of bikes.

I've used alu bikes over 30 years old daily and I had no issues whatsoever, that's how I went to school everyday for 3 years, and that was a race bike that actually had been use for racing in the past

Online posts make it sound like alu bikes self destruct at 5 years and a day...

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#85

Post by lm28469 »

jjav wrote: post #14
ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?

> Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last?

People under 25 don't know better, they genuenly haven't experienced anything else than Chinese made self destructing Bluetooth enabled plastic gadgets

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#86

Post by ensocode »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #55
ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

The appeal is that thieves need to do the same thing. Which limits the value of the bike for them because it makes it easy to track them down. It's part of the theft protection. Which, if you've ever had your bike stolen is a big selling point for these bikes. Theft is a reason why I've never bothered with premium bikes. Because you can't take them anywhere and expect them to not get stolen. Van Moof changed that. Th…

This. I also would not like my bike to rely on an internet connection. At least in my view this lowers the value of the bike.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#87

Post by andromeduck »

seu wrote: post #27
jjav wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?

> Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? That's the softwarization of everything, with its in-built early obsolesce: they clearly expect you to start replacing your bike as frequently as you replace your phone, irrelevant of how long the hardware itself is still functional.

The limiting factor is theft. You're paying a premium theft resistance.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#88

Post by alias_neo »

chizhik-pyzhik wrote: post #6

A cursory look at the code and this seems legit, nothing that would steal my login credentials. It's a small codebase. I'm curious how long the hardcoded api key here will work, though: https://github.com/grossartig/vanmoof-encryption-key-exporte... used in https://github.com/grossartig/vanmoof-encryption-key-exporte...

I don't know anything about these bikes; but what is one supposed to do once they retrieve their keys? Does the app/bike provide an alternative method of presenting the key? Are keys rotated, so they need to be downloaded more than once (I assume that's that's the case since this code is intended to be run as a service, in a Docker container)? If so, what happens when their servers do shut down and there is no API?

Are people like the creator of this tool hoping for a future option to make use of the keys, and they're just being backed up for a rainy day at this point?

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#89

Post by dr_dshiv »

oblio wrote: post #46
dr_dshiv wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Van Moof bikes are EVERYWHERE in Amsterdam. They obviously shouldn’t have taken so much investment. But if you can capture a latent market need like that, there probably is a lot of opportunity at scale, too.

They're losing money on every sale... what market?

Isn’t the assumption that they are losing money on the cost of expansion, not the material cost? Eg, if they were only selling in the Netherlands it would be profitable—but they are paying for international growth and that isn’t profitable.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#90

Post by londons_explore »

planb wrote: post #63
wjnc wrote: post #3

Don’t buy products made by VC funded firms! Especially not if it’s a real product and you value repairability and service. VanMoof made losses the size of their revenue. They made bikes… where’s the natural monopoly to be chased there?

While I think you're right, you could have said the same thing about Tesla cars - but it worked out in that case. The problem with VanMoof was that they prioritized growth over quality - which may be a side effect of taking VC money, but is plain dumb if you're selling physical goods that are expensive to fix. Just talk to anyone with a VanMoof or see the subreddit: Nearly every bike they sold required multiple repai…

Part of a premium product is the number of failures to expect.

To reduce the number of failures, they need a fleet of thousands of bikes in the field to monitor and redesign any component that might break.

But those bikes aren't yet reliable - so they shouldn't be putting their brand name on them.

Other manufacturers get this right. It is pretty common I buy something from Aliexpress for really cheap and it is clearly a premium product that has had the logos removed and is being sent out for user testing. They normally come with a card in the box saying "If this breaks, email this gmail address and we'll exchange it for a new one for free". They do that because they really want to know about failures. That lets them redesign the product to make it reliable, which in turn lets them put the premium brand name on it.

You simply can't make a product reliable with lab testing alone. The only way is with real users and time.

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