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Guam: The America that Americans forget

nytimes.com

141–150 of 555 posts

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an American airline flight that starts and ends in the US, therefore complying with the rule.

The rule is simply that foreign-owned airlines can’t fly point-to-point routes between US destinations. I’m in Chicago, and I can book a Korean Air, non-codeshare ORD-ICN-GUM right now. You can find it on Kayak.

It's not a componentized ticket from the airline, but singular tickets that Kayak has joined together. Or, it's simply ignoring the regulation, and will be denied by the airline once you attempt to book it.

As the other poster mentioned, try grabbing a componetized ticket from the airline and they will not book it.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#142
post #54
post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

Flight costs are a pain, and the flight durations are nothing to sneeze at either. I live out in Guam (my wife is stationed here with the Navy) and the two most common ways to get back to the mainland are via Tokyo (Narita) and Honolulu. I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Sta…

I get the feeling that Hawaii takes all the US tourism for tropical islands. In a hypothetical scenario where Hawaii didn't exist maybe Guam would be more popular?

But maybe it's better this way.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#143
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) I hate those people. I live in a city of 1.5 million (there's everything here), and it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amoun…

I mean some like hyperdense megacities and everything that comes with it bleeding edge/underground scene for X, 24 hours life, close proximity to people. It's completely alien to me as well but why look down on people liking different things?

Nobody wants to be the only gay in the village.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#144

Maybe that is because Guam is not in America?

In what way? The territories are as much a part of the US as the states are. They simply have a different status than the states do.

I assume you're making some point/remark regarding their status and the political mindfield surrounding it, but that doesn't change their subnational/sovereign situation.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#145

Sort of related, the list of Associated states is an interesting rabbit hole to read about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_state

The territories of the United States are not associated states, but subnational entities (equal to the States in hierarchy, not necessarily political status).

The Marshall Islands, Micronesia, etc are free associations.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#146
post #84

The usual lies and distortions that we expect from the Times . Just some examples: >In 1893, Americans overthrew the monarchy in Hawaii, then later annexed the island. A committee of native-born Hawaii citizens, Americans, and Europeans overthrew the monarchy, not the US government. The US didn't annex Hawaii until the Spanish War in 1898 demonstrated the islands' importance to the US. >a series of Supreme Court ruli…

> A committee of native-born Hawaii citizens, Americans, and Europeans overthrew the monarchy, not the US government. The US didn't annex Hawaii until the Spanish War in 1898 demonstrated the islands' importance to the US. The native-born citizens in the Committee of Safety [0] were almost all second and third generation descendants of Americans. No ethnic Hawaiians were members. While the committee was composed of p…

> The native-born citizens in the Committee of Safety [0] were almost all second and third generation descendants of Americans. No ethnic Hawaiians were members.

So because of their ethnicity, they don't count as "native" Hawaiians despite having been born on the islands with birthright citizenship. Got it.

One begins to understand why they joined the "Committee of Safety" that plotted the overthrow of the monarchy, the same monarchy that was planning to revoke the relatively liberal constitution.

>While the committee was composed of private citizens, they acted with the ultimate goal of annexation with the United States.

Correct. Annexation was something that most people, in the US and in Hawaii, expected during the 19th century would happen eventually. Kamehameha III in the 1850s asked for annexation, but it didn't happen because of US internal politics.

>They were crucially supported by a contingent of US troops that surrounded the palace of the Hawaiian monarchy on the orders of the chief American diplomat, whose interests in annexation aligned with the committee.

US consul John Stevens was a member of the committee that plotted the overthrow of the monarchy. He exploited the time gap between Honolulu and Washington to ask for the soldiers on US Navy ships in the harbor to march off the ships, parade through the city, then march back on. When Washington learned of what Stevens had done he was fired, but it was too late; the queen had been intimidated into surrendering.

And don't even bother to bring up the Blount Report, because I can bring up the Morgan Report. My larger point is to, when discussing something you obviously didn't know anything about before today, not try to refute someone else by citing superficial readings of Wikipedia articles that you, again, had never looked at before today and go "A-ha! Got you!" Just don't.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#147
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk when you've given your house back to whatever native people were there before you. Or should you give it to the "native" people that were there before them? Or the ones before those ones? Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if/when they can/want.

> Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if and when they can and want. Sure. But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine? Just because evils were done in the past, doesn’t mean we should just accept it as universal truths and continue doing the same things to others (islanders). If you accept that Russia is wrong, then invading…

>>why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine?

Jesus christ, that's a logical jump if I've ever seen one, but ok, I'll bite:

IF Russia succeeds at taking Ukraine, then sure in few hundred years it should be accepted as "normal" that's just what Russia's territory is. Just like most European countries where their borders have shifted through wars and violence many times in the past. That doesn't make the present actions ok, just like the past actions of European colonists in North America aren't ok.

There is literally ZERO reason to accept what Russia is doing now. They should be fought against with all might that can be offered, because it's barbaric, brutal, and has no reason to happen. Just like I'm sure Native Americans and all "first people" of any lands have fought against invaders in their time.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#148

Also interesting is Palau: > Politically, Palau is a presidential republic in free association with the United States, which provides defense, funding, and access to social services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau [oops, it's mentioned, nvm]

Free association is different than territorial status. Territories are subnational entities (like states), while free associated states are sovereign entities that share some sort of agreement.

In the case of the Pacific Islands and the US, free association has to do with military protection and guaranteed sovereignty in exchange for shared military access. It oftentimes takes the place of vassalage or protectorate status, but with equal party station (either party can leave, if they see fit versus the more powerful entity enforcing the situation).

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could they join onto another state (Alaska? Hawaii?), Guam's population is very low to have a full 2 senators

That doesn't really matter. Alaska had a little over 200k people when it became a state in 1959. Wyoming these days has what, 600k people? Like yeah, the Senate's disproportionate representation is dumb and bad, but that's the system we're stuck with. And Guam is farther from Hawaii than Hawaii is from the US mainland IIRC.

Guam is closer to Sri Lanka than it is to the US mainland, and closer to Australia than it is to Midway. It's pretty far away ha ha!

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#150
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine? Because before significant aid could even reach Ukraine, the Ukrainians stopped Russia - ergo they didn’t “defeat the natives” and instead are being defeated. So your comparison here doesn’t really make sense. It also doesn’t make sense because we Russia is actively attacking Ukraine today .

I don’t understand. By your logic, if Russia had defeated Ukraine, then it would’ve been fair and normal? Islanders had their land taken from them and still don’t have it (just like natives). How is this different from Russia taking Ukraine’s land?

Yes. Unfortunately we live in a world where might makes right.

If Russia had kicked Ukraine's ass what do you think would have happened? NATO declaring war? Remember that Putin got away with Crimea in 2014.You only have sovereignty if you can defend it.

Fairness doesn't come into it.

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