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VanMoof encryption key exporter

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Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#51

Post by tjoff »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #29
ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

You don't need an internet connection or the app, but that's the most convenient way - you can enter a PIN on the bike itself to unlock it. I think the appeal (at least for me, I considered one but never got one) is that it makes the bike harder to steal. Someone can't just ride off on it after they cut your lock. I worry about leaving my $600 bike out in public, so I'd be super paranoid about a $2000+ bike.

Thought they just throwed them at the back of a van rather than biked away.

Either way you most likely won't recover it.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#52

Post by jskrablin »

benoliver999 wrote: post #20
jjav wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?

I worry about this with most components of e-bikes. I suppose a mid-drive one is probably always gonna have parts you can replace but custom kit like VanMoof seems ready for landfill.

You should be able to get years of support for established brands. They are all using similar/identical components (Shimano, Yamaha, Bafang mid drive motors, similar battery packs, etc). There's also aftermarket support/custmizations available for them.

Going with a small/exotic brand will always carry a risk of brand disappearing, no aftermarket options, hard to get spare parts, etc... And e-bike business is especially competitive these days so I wouldn't bet on some random hipster brand having any chance to survive in the battle against established brands.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#53

Post by j-a-a-p »

gnopgnip wrote: post #10
ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

If it’s stolen they will either recover it or replace it. And everyone knows this, so no one will buy a stolen one and they are less likely to be stolen.

Ah, now i am beginning to understand why they needed 200 million to develop a bike...

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#54

Post by greenpresident »

wiseowise wrote: post #32
Arnt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did Van Moof make, exactly? Do you think they were normal bikes? They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features. They have features that make it possible to trace and locate them, and Van Moof would actually do this. For people who spend €3-4k on an easily stolen object that the police won't care about, that's a unique selling point.

Waiting 6 weeks for any kind of repair was also their unique selling point?

That’s a common waiting time at my local bike shops to be honest. The difference is that you can do most stuff on a normal bike yourself with off the shelf parts (supply chain woes permitting).

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#55

Post by jillesvangurp »

ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

The appeal is that thieves need to do the same thing. Which limits the value of the bike for them because it makes it easy to track them down. It's part of the theft protection. Which, if you've ever had your bike stolen is a big selling point for these bikes. Theft is a reason why I've never bothered with premium bikes. Because you can't take them anywhere and expect them to not get stolen. Van Moof changed that. They can be stolen of course but it's a lot of hassle and bike thieves learned pretty quickly that there's very little point in doing so as they'll go through a lot of trouble to track down the bike. Which means it's risky.

Van Moof actually had an insurance policy that you could buy that included a guarantee to either track down your stolen bike or replace it. The so-called bike hunters would attempt to track down the bike. And stealing one involves dealing with a very loud and obnoxious alarm that is motion triggered that can only be disabled by unlocking the bike.

Those were all good things. What's not good is all the proprietary components, the poor quality of those, and the over dependence on the Van Moof servicing. That's what's killing the company. Basically classic VC funded company problem: great idea and product but hopeless execution resulting in a company that has a lot of cost but no profits making that problem worse through rapid growth and inflated investor expectations. The debt bubble burst last year, they are running out of cash now, and game over pretty much.

I actually have a lease bike from a company called Swapfiets here in Berlin. Very nice deal. I pay them per month and the bike is basically ignored by bike thieves and vandals. There are hundreds of thousands of these bikes across Europe. Each bringing in revenue through a subscription. Genius idea.

The bike is decent but nothing special. What they sell is peace of mind. I get to ride a decent bike and not worry about it getting stolen. Very low tech solution; the bikes are just very recognizable which means selling them is not a thing for thieves. If it gets stolen and I can show the key, my risk is 60 euros. I've had one for three years now and I park it all over town in all the hot spots where bikes get stolen, vandalized, etc. without a second thought. Not a single incident.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#56

Post by mattio »

Arnt wrote: post #23
wjnc wrote: post #3

Don’t buy products made by VC funded firms! Especially not if it’s a real product and you value repairability and service. VanMoof made losses the size of their revenue. They made bikes… where’s the natural monopoly to be chased there?

What did Van Moof make, exactly? Do you think they were normal bikes? They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features. They have features that make it possible to trace and locate them, and Van Moof would actually do this. For people who spend €3-4k on an easily stolen object that the police won't care about, that's a unique selling point.

I am not sure why everyone thinks they are expensive. Just the bike is about 2000 euro.

There are eBikes costing 4000 euro.

My van moof was about 2800 because I bought the 2 packages taking care of theft and repairs. Because of their image I never have to lock the bike besides their amazing kick lock bike, so getting on and off the bike with locking and unlocking it is a matter of seconds.

This is not expensive at all.

*their image amongst bicycle thief’s makes the bike unattractive. They hunt down stolen bikes if you bought their theft service. If they can’t find it you get a new one.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#57

Post by mschuster91 »

tjoff wrote: post #51
Rebelgecko wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need an internet connection or the app, but that's the most convenient way - you can enter a PIN on the bike itself to unlock it. I think the appeal (at least for me, I considered one but never got one) is that it makes the bike harder to steal. Someone can't just ride off on it after they cut your lock. I worry about leaving my $600 bike out in public, so I'd be super paranoid about a $2000+ bike.

Thought they just throwed them at the back of a van rather than biked away. Either way you most likely won't recover it.

> Thought they just throwed them at the back of a van rather than biked away.

The point of Van Moof was to associate their brand with "don't steal our bikes because they will lead the police to your dump location".

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#58

Post by mjhagen »

mattio wrote: post #56
Arnt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did Van Moof make, exactly? Do you think they were normal bikes? They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features. They have features that make it possible to trace and locate them, and Van Moof would actually do this. For people who spend €3-4k on an easily stolen object that the police won't care about, that's a unique selling point.

I am not sure why everyone thinks they are expensive. Just the bike is about 2000 euro. There are eBikes costing 4000 euro. My van moof was about 2800 because I bought the 2 packages taking care of theft and repairs. Because of their image I never have to lock the bike besides their amazing kick lock bike, so getting on and off the bike with locking and unlocking it is a matter of seconds. This is not expensive at al…

> This is not expensive at all.

> If they can’t find it you get a new one.

Can't figure out why they weren't profitable.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#59

Post by Arnt »

mattio wrote: post #56
Arnt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did Van Moof make, exactly? Do you think they were normal bikes? They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features. They have features that make it possible to trace and locate them, and Van Moof would actually do this. For people who spend €3-4k on an easily stolen object that the police won't care about, that's a unique selling point.

I am not sure why everyone thinks they are expensive. Just the bike is about 2000 euro. There are eBikes costing 4000 euro. My van moof was about 2800 because I bought the 2 packages taking care of theft and repairs. Because of their image I never have to lock the bike besides their amazing kick lock bike, so getting on and off the bike with locking and unlocking it is a matter of seconds. This is not expensive at al…

To clarify: I personally don't see them as expensive. My neighbour who bought an e-bike this year called them expensive, because they were well above the cheapest things on offer.

They have some fine features that IMO justify their prices, but I'm guessing that I'm an outlier wrt judging bike values and my neighbour more mainstream, so I called them expensive.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#60

Post by Arnt »

mjhagen wrote: post #58
mattio wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why everyone thinks they are expensive. Just the bike is about 2000 euro. There are eBikes costing 4000 euro. My van moof was about 2800 because I bought the 2 packages taking care of theft and repairs. Because of their image I never have to lock the bike besides their amazing kick lock bike, so getting on and off the bike with locking and unlocking it is a matter of seconds. This is not expensive at al…

> This is not expensive at all. > If they can’t find it you get a new one. Can't figure out why they weren't profitable.

Seriously: They bought a lot of expensive machinery to build things, rented and furnished a lot of shops, and hired a lot of people to staff those, and sales didn't grow to to use their production capacity, sales area and staff time.

Their prices for that trace-or-replace service were quite a bit higher than what my insurance agency charges me for my theft insurance. That operation may have lost money, but that's not obvious.

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