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Guam: The America that Americans forget

nytimes.com

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Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#51

Post by ericmay »

sreejithr wrote: post #32
jakear wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk when you've given your house back to whatever native people were there before you. Or should you give it to the "native" people that were there before them? Or the ones before those ones? Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if/when they can/want.

> Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if and when they can and want. Sure. But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine? Just because evils were done in the past, doesn’t mean we should just accept it as universal truths and continue doing the same things to others (islanders). If you accept that Russia is wrong, then invading…

> But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine?

Because before significant aid could even reach Ukraine, the Ukrainians stopped Russia - ergo they didn’t “defeat the natives” and instead are being defeated.

So your comparison here doesn’t really make sense. It also doesn’t make sense because we Russia is actively attacking Ukraine today.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#52

Post by ClumsyPilot »

mc32 wrote: post #8
baggy_trough wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why "only" and "and nothing more" are present in that sentence. You don't think strategic projection of power is important?

Sometimes you have to let countries duke it out themselves and settle their scores by themselves. I also think post Cold War, we're spending way too much money protecting others at US taxpayer expense. Let those countries defend themselves. Why do we have to be the world police and take all the blowback?

> we're spending way too much money protecting others at US taxpayer expense.

Is US pritectibg Europe, or US interests in Europe?

Over the past 40 years the US spending on arms has grown, but fewer and fewer pieces are being produced. Pentagon fails audits.

Now it got to the point where USA cannot supply Ukraine with enough artillery rounds, and they are like the aimplest item to produce. Economy of Russia is like 10x smaller, this should not even be a contest in terms of production.

Imagine if there is a real conflict, and things like cruise missiles need to be replaced, what happens then - you place an order and wait 2 years for it to be delivered? China has 10 the manufacturing capabilty of Russia.

I doubtwe need to spend so much, but why are we not getting our money's worth?

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#53

Post by sreejithr »

ericmay wrote: post #51
sreejithr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or maybe just accept that the one constant of life is everyone takes everyone else's shit if and when they can and want. Sure. But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine? Just because evils were done in the past, doesn’t mean we should just accept it as universal truths and continue doing the same things to others (islanders). If you accept that Russia is wrong, then invading…

> But if this is normal, why is it so hard to accept what Russia is doing to Ukraine? Because before significant aid could even reach Ukraine, the Ukrainians stopped Russia - ergo they didn’t “defeat the natives” and instead are being defeated. So your comparison here doesn’t really make sense. It also doesn’t make sense because we Russia is actively attacking Ukraine today .

I don’t understand. By your logic, if Russia had defeated Ukraine, then it would’ve been fair and normal?

Islanders had their land taken from them and still don’t have it (just like natives). How is this different from Russia taking Ukraine’s land?

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#54

Post by r24y »

wayne wrote: post #25

The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destinat…

Flight costs are a pain, and the flight durations are nothing to sneeze at either. I live out in Guam (my wife is stationed here with the Navy) and the two most common ways to get back to the mainland are via Tokyo (Narita) and Honolulu.

I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) and those who enjoy its incredible outdoor environment. Some of the best snorkeling and scuba diving in the world is right here, and as for hiking: we've been hiking very frequently for the two years since we arrived and haven't gotten bored yet. Depending on where you go on the island, the terrain and plant life looks very different.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#55

Post by r24y »

calgarymicro wrote: post #33
givemeethekeys wrote: post #27

Forgetting what is America is one of the reasons Americans lost the Philippines as a territory.

Did they ever want to keep it? It was my understanding that, as with Mexico following the Mexican American War, many in the US didn't want permanent integration due to racial sentiments; the thought of giving tens of millions of Filipinos US citizenship horrified them.

For anyone interested: the article mentions “How to Hide an Empire” by Daniel Immerwahr. It's a very well-written and well-researched book -- Immerwahr does a great job creating a narrative from all the historical events in the book. The reason I mention it here is because it goes into detail about Americans' reluctance to grant full citizenship to residents of its overseas territories.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#56

Post by givemeethekeys »

calgarymicro wrote: post #33
givemeethekeys wrote: post #27

Forgetting what is America is one of the reasons Americans lost the Philippines as a territory.

Did they ever want to keep it? It was my understanding that, as with Mexico following the Mexican American War, many in the US didn't want permanent integration due to racial sentiments; the thought of giving tens of millions of Filipinos US citizenship horrified them.

Ordinary American citizens didn't like the idea of being colonizers, since they had, not long ago, been a colony themselves and fought to free themselves.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#57

Post by soligern »

mc32 wrote: post #8
baggy_trough wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why "only" and "and nothing more" are present in that sentence. You don't think strategic projection of power is important?

Sometimes you have to let countries duke it out themselves and settle their scores by themselves. I also think post Cold War, we're spending way too much money protecting others at US taxpayer expense. Let those countries defend themselves. Why do we have to be the world police and take all the blowback?

Because that’s what being a superpower means. A lot of the rights and privileges you enjoy is precisely because the US is a superpower. If you don’t like it, you’re more than welcome to move to some quiet backwater, there are plenty of those around the world.

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#58

Post by pipnonsense »

throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #39
messe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue then is if you have checked luggage.

So get your luggage? Deboarding, going through immigration, getting luggage, and going through customs takes no more than 45 minutes at Narita. Give yourself a 2 hour layover to be safe. Or pack like Rick Steves and just bring a backpack with the essentials.

I don't think they ever meant it's impossible to get there, just unnecessarily difficult (or expensive) due to a regulation that is bring unnecessary hassle (which is exactly what you are describing, but, somehow, using a tone that it's something smooth).

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#59

Post by jcranmer »

mc32 wrote: post #4

Ah, yes, the island that could capsize, if we load it up with too much materiel, according to a particular US Senator... Guam is like Guantanamo, or Diego Garcia. We're there only because they are of strategic importance for the post-war (WWII) projection of power and nothing more. Else all those little island bases would be quiet places like so many other small islands that dot the oceans.

> We're there only because they are of strategic importance for the post-war (WWII) projection of power and nothing more.

Are you aware that the US acquired Guam decades before WWII?

Re: Guam: The America that Americans forget

#60

Post by rufus_foreman »

outworlder wrote: post #10
mc32 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes you have to let countries duke it out themselves and settle their scores by themselves. I also think post Cold War, we're spending way too much money protecting others at US taxpayer expense. Let those countries defend themselves. Why do we have to be the world police and take all the blowback?

> Why do we have to be the world police and take all the blowback? Because that's what superpowers do if they want to keep their position as superpowers. You can, for example, stop policing shipping lanes. But then can't complain once shipments start disappearing as other countries don't take the slack. There is less justification to keep warships near 'interesting' countries in that scenario too. You get to keep the…

No.

The United States was the world's superpower on December 6, 1941.

It did not get to that position by keeping the military machine well oiled.

On December 6, 1941, the US vs. rest of world might have been a fair fight. Maybe.

That didn't happen by being the world police.

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