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Passkeys will come at a cost

fy.blackhats.net.au

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Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#51
post #31

I think the author is taking the argument too far and also not being precise in their language which is the exactly the "passkey hype" they fault Apple and "Fido" for doing. Maybe just cut the exposition out of the article I don't think it helps the argument and makes the author sound angsty rather than contribute to the well thought out considerations towards the end. Point being, I think there's a point but it was…

no not far enough

residual keys are IMHO a security misdesign and shouldn't exist

but now the industry hype is pushing to make the the de-facto mandatory way

Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#52
Since Apple didn't actually define it, this left a void for our thought leaders to answer that question for users hungry to know "what indeed is a passkey?".

I have always understood that Apple defined a Passkey to be a key pair that is synced through iCloud Keychain. Even their WWDC 2021 presentation distinguishes passkeys to be different than security keys because they are "always with you" (the device sync aspect) and "recoverable". I think the definition was later extended to other cloud sync methods.

I also think the article makes the wrong trade-offs. Security keys are not important [1]. They are only used by a negligible number of technical users and a small number of companies that really care about security. Getting people off passwords is necessary for improving web safety and 99% of the population is never going to use security keys unless they are forced to. Passkeys do have a good chance of getting people off passwords, especially with deep OS integration. We shouldn't optimize authentication for that 1% or less because they'd be running out of resident key slots.

[1] I am the owner of 3 Yubikeys, 3 Yubico security keys and a SoloKey.

Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#53

This raises a question for me. Why are hardware keys so limited in storage? How much extra would it cost to have a secure processor that could access a mass storage device also built in to the key. This mass storage device would of course be strongly encrypted by the secure processor with a key that would be erased at the same time everything else is erased.

Because secure tamper resistend storage is expensive. I would even go as far and say from a security POV the best security key is the key which has 0 storage. Because in my experience any protocol which injects and stores a secure token into a security key/enclave/whatever instead of deriving it from shared secrets etc. has serious flaws. Sometimes it's fundamentally security flaws (like TOTP). Sometimes it's complex…

What do you mean by fundamental security flaws with totp?

Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#54
post #2

That's a rather uncharitable take on the situation. I'll propose an alternative: If you want to take advantage of the new auth standard that will eliminate weak passwords and password reuse (thereby preventing 99% of casual account break-ins), you'll have to spend $30 to upgrade off the legacy yubikey you've been coasting on since 2013.

Can you give me a high level description of why passkeys won't work with my current hardware key, and then explain why they went with that implementation instead of one that works with my current hardware key?

`rk=required` means your hardware is required to store each and every derived key, not just the master key, all in the service of you not needing to remember your username anymore. Current security keys can handle a couple dozen derived keys at most, _if_ they can handle any at all.

This flies in the face of previous promises where 'every key can handle an unlimited amount of accounts'. In my eyes, this looks like a big push towards phones as passkeys, and nothing else. Would fit with the Bluetooth sync strategy as well.

Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#55
post #48

> rk=required why does that even exist, that shouldn't be an option this stuff is why I have been so worried/skeptical about Passkeys and the people related to it. They have the responsibility to design their protocols to not be a tool well suited for big coperations like Microsoft to seriously mess up security, compatibility and enact all kinds of "bad faith" market practices to kill competition. But instead again a…

I'm pretty sure the goal here is to turn your phone into your passkey, _and nothing else_. Everything written in that article makes sense if you keep that in mind.

Apple opened up OS integration for other applications. 1Password is currently doing beta testing of their Passkey implementation.

Besides that, the whole idea of Passkey (in contrast to what this blog claims) was that the key material can be synced between devices, so I am not sure how only the phone would be 'a passkey'. iCloud Keychain syncs my Passkeys between all my devices, including to my MacBooks.

Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go as far and say it's a too charitable take. Shared residual keys _should not exist_ (outside of short term temporary usage, e.g. not 2FA/FIDO). They are a liability, they are a security risk, they promote bad security practices. Best example TOTP (which from a security POV is quite flawed). You don't want to ever share the shared secret across devices (or back it up) but due to it being possible and flawed…

> You don't want to ever share the shared secret across devices (or back it up) Hard disagree there. I do not feel comfortable unless I can backup a key. Phones get lost/broken/stolen all the time. Is it less theoretically secure? Sure, whatever, but I am not James Bond.

you don't need to backup a shared secret to gain exactly what you get from backing up a shared secret, except more secure

you have a backup of a _different_ secret with a similar degree of "authority" (or if it's "copyable" with the only authority to be used for restoring 2FA once or similar)

then if you backup gets stolen you can just go into you account management API and disable/delete/flag it, in that case even if encryption is broken as long as you act fast enough the damage is trivially and conveniently contained (e.g. some password managers had insecure backup/storage in the past)

with the same key not only do you have to disable it, you first have to create a new key and then sync it to all your new devices and backups and then disable the old key, which isn't grate if you have more then one device or some of you devices are temporary out of reach (e.g. you one a business trip)

it's like reintroducing the "physical" problem of having to replace all locks when you loose your house key in a situation where you could have all the benefits one key per lock and a different door for each person (i.e. device) without any of the overhead/drawbacks this would normally introduce

Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#57
post #31

I think the author is taking the argument too far and also not being precise in their language which is the exactly the "passkey hype" they fault Apple and "Fido" for doing. Maybe just cut the exposition out of the article I don't think it helps the argument and makes the author sound angsty rather than contribute to the well thought out considerations towards the end. Point being, I think there's a point but it was…

no not far enough residual keys are IMHO a security misdesign and shouldn't exist but now the industry hype is pushing to make the the de-facto mandatory way

I'm not clear on what you mean by this. Do you mean hardware-backed non-extractable resident keys? Or the more simple idea that your WebAuthN agent can store a key?

I don't see a problem with a WebAuthN agent storing a key (ideally locally encrypted at rest with a hardware resident key from a user or device TPM). Having users have a passkey database that they sync across devices is not really a problem as far as I can tell. Do you feel like that's a problem?

Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#58
They really just can’t get out of their own way in screwing this stuff up…

Resident keys allow the browser to query the secure element for a list of usernames for a domain. It’s a nice feature, but you have to setup the protocol to reliably fallback to non-resident keys on secure elements that are space constrained.

But then they came up with these resident key “preferred” and “discouraged” keywords which are sent by the site?! And then the various clients all interpret them differently so there’s no obvious way for a site to let clients with secure elements with practically unlimited storage to opt-in to resident keys while limited storage secure elements stick with the wrapped/derived key.

The current situation is if you send “preferred” you’ll fill up limited space YubiKeys, and if you send “discouraged” then Androids with practically unlimited storage won’t use resident keys.

Clients should decide based on their capabilities and should always opt for residency if they have unlimited storage. The protocol should have been defined with just a boolean ‘required’ field for residency, which would only be used in highly unusual circumstances (which I’m not sure what those are — what’s the justification for a site requiring residency?)

One day we’ll get it right…

Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#59
this is probably a dumb question, but why not just store a secret seed that is used with an on device prng to generate as many secrets as you need where a sequence id gets shared with the counterparty?

Re: Passkeys will come at a cost

#60
post #37

Passkeys make no sense. Its selling you something you already own, since a fingerprint or a retina scan makes a fine good two factor as well.

Someone gains access to a Passkey. You generate a new Passkey and replace the registered Passkey for the server. Someone gains access to your fingerprints or retina scan... Game over?
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