When Work Didn’t Follow You Home • Hacker News Board

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#101

Post by spacemadness » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:10 PM UTC

doublerabbit wrote: post #77

spacemadness wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing the amount of people that answer late night chats from people in other timezones upsets me. What upsets me more are the people on vacation answering chats as soon as they’re pinged. That behavior changes work culture and expectations the more it happens. Bad managers love this sort of thing. I learned a long time ago that to keep my sanity I need a wall up between work hours and my personal life.

Its not always that easy. Enterprise just doesn't work that way. Where multiple timezones come in to play you need to be around. If I need email comms for an important document regarding to something super tight. I can't just wait till tomorrow. Information can be crucial at times and emails can cause break down in communications. Spreadsheets need to be spread and PowerPoints need to be pointed. Work yes, you can st…

Sure but this is why I don’t work in that field and neither do these people.

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#102

Post by tristor » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:11 PM UTC

NoahECampbell wrote: post #4

I mean this isn't actually a large problem, at least in programming where I am familiar with a lot of trends. It is very common for people to immediately sign off for the day the minute their work day/shift is over and not do anything else after. If people want to do that then sure they can, but they also trade off the ability to earn raises and promotions by doing the bare minimum. Getting a work-life balance is imp…

The idea that someone who leaves work when their day is over is "doing the bare minimum" is an incredibly toxic mentality, and it leads to burnout but doesn't get you ahead. I know from personal experience. Based on your post history it seems you're still a student and have never worked in a professional capacity. I highly recommend you introspect about this and disabuse yourself of the notion that you will in any way be rewarded for working unpaid overtime, which is exactly what it is when you are in tech.

It's something a lot of people don't realize, but many technical roles are exempt from overtime, even when hourly, /by federal law/ in the US. Most roles are also salaried. You gain no direct benefit from working more hours, and it has many fringe downsides and no upsides. Working unpaid overtime skews capacity planning and budget cycles, and leads to teams which are consistently understaffed and under-resourced without reduced expectations. Being "a hero" is actually bad for yourself, your team, and your company. Now that I'm involved in budget processes, resource allocation, and prioritization much more heavily than I was in the past as an IC engineer, I can see exactly how damaging this behavior is.

In /reasonable/ companies, capacity planning is usually based on trend analysis of past completed story points and sizing, averaged against headcount. Being "a hero" fucks up the average and messes up capacity planning. In unreasonable companies, ignorant managers will happily work you to burnout if it helps them drive a sale and take credit for it without any care for your health and wellbeing. Burn out isn't something you can fix by taking a vacation, it's a serious serious problem that can have life-altering repercussions. I have so many acquaintances over the year in tech that developed substance abuse problems, serious mental health conditions, and in many cases had their lives fall apart because they inappropriately managed their work/life balance and burned out.

You should really reconsider sharing advice when you have never actually had any experience. I realize in your 20s you think you know everything and you're invincible, but I'd posit you consider an alternative, which is that you don't know shit and you too one day will get old and die. Perhaps you should re-prioritize before you pay the toll.

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#103

Post by tristor » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:14 PM UTC

distcs wrote: post #86

nobsthrow wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are a 2nd-year CS student.* You have never worked as an engineer. You do not understand what the real world is like. Please stop waxing about shit you don't know a la /r/cscareerquestions. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36344172

They may be 2nd year CS student but the world they experience is not any less real than ours who have been in the industry for 10-20 years. You may disagree with them and that's fine. There is a sort of generation gap obviously and our opinions would differ from theirs. That's fine too. But what is really unacceptable to me is how you dismiss their viewpoint because they are a 2nd-year CS student! What if they were n…

No, his comment is spot on. A 2nd year CS student doesn't know jack shit about working in a professional capacity, and should not be sharing terrible advise that leads to burn out that other people may follow because they too don't know shit about working in a professional capacity.

Advice carries accountability, and if you don't have the necessary experience to carry advice, it is much better to shut your trap than to reveal your ignorance. The type of inclusive coddling you are doing does not improve the world, it makes everything worse and socially penalizes people for speaking the truth. /You/ are the person who should re-consider your comments.

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#104

Post by ye-olde-sysrq » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:18 PM UTC

bbbobbb wrote: post #84

ye-olde-sysrq wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Add in parental responsibilities Out of curiosity, how many of your coworkers have kids? I have 3, and I've always found it a bit ominous that even when I'm on large teams (8+) I'm typically still the only person with kids. So far: 1. job 1, team of 8, only 1 other IC had kids 2. job 2, team of 10, nobody else had kids 3. current job, team of 8, nobody else has kids. If you expand it to the suborganization we're in,…

Fertility is definitely not below replacement rate. Maybe in western countries. You find it hard to say it's unfair but you seem to hint to it. I don't think it is in the slightest. Also you sound like a software developer from the US so you likely can afford to work say 80% and "recoup" some of that free time.

Yes, I meant in the West, where much of the high-tech work the article is about.

Well of course I feel it's unfair at some level! That is indeed why I made the comment.

Assuming we want society to continue, someone has to have kids. And while of course we don't want to force individual people to have kids, we should (again assuming we do want humanity to continue) probably try to achieve some kind of balance to where large swathes of people don't self-select out of having kids due to economic/career reasons.

And if the working spouse tries to shed home responsibilities to help them focus on their career, this simply promotes inequity, both sex-wise (since more women are stay-at-home spouses than men) and class-wise (wealthier people will be able to hire additional help, while poorer people will not).

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#105

Post by alexpotato » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:26 PM UTC

I remember reading the following quote (origin lost to me):

"Look at photos of businessmen on the streets of New York in the late 1890s. Then compare them to photos of people today.

One of the first things you'll notice is how little they are carrying e.g. no briefcase, laptop bag etc. This is because in those days if you left the office there was no expectation of doing work. Everything you would need to be productive only existed in your office. Plus, you were completely unreachable once you stepped outside so why bring anything work related?"

Now, sure, a messenger could be sent to find you at lunch and you could argue that a business lunch is still 'work' but I've always like the idea of "out of the office, out of touch".

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#106

Post by icedchai » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:27 PM UTC

pyrale wrote: post #68

lumost wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly surprised that more companies haven't invested in broader vacation policies. My experience has been that the constant "on" state wears you down. The only way to get to "off" is to be OOTO officially for a week+. Add in parental responsibilities and you really don't have any headspace for yourself. Would love to have 5-8 weeks per year, that would let me take at least 1 week's worth of time per quarter to…

> I'm honestly surprised that more companies haven't invested in broader vacation policies. As an EU person, the existence of places where people never stop working is mind boggling.

I suspect many of these comments are from people in the 20% that actually do most of the work.

There are plenty of jobs where people almost never start working. I have friends who've worked corporate jobs doing little-to-nothing for years at a time, collecting 6 figure salaries until the move on to the next gig.

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#107

Post by DeltaCoast » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:28 PM UTC

tobyjsullivan wrote: post #66

We’re witnessing a categorical shift in how people sell their time. Once upon a time, maybe a hundred years ago, people worked “days”. This was a product of the available technology at the time. The average labourer didn’t have a pocket watch to know exactly what hour it was to clock in and out. If someone worked Tuesday, they worked from sun up to sun down. They got paid “a day’s wage”. As time-keeping technology be…

Are you saying now people are no longer working "8am to 5pm" because the commute is no longer the boundary? I'm not sure I follow.

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#108

Post by alexpotato » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:29 PM UTC

spacemadness wrote: post #51

policepost wrote: post #30

Don't connect your phone to work. Close your laptop at 5. Walk away. Keep to a standard schedule.

Seeing the amount of people that answer late night chats from people in other timezones upsets me. What upsets me more are the people on vacation answering chats as soon as they’re pinged. That behavior changes work culture and expectations the more it happens. Bad managers love this sort of thing. I learned a long time ago that to keep my sanity I need a wall up between work hours and my personal life.

Having managed teams in Asia from the US, let me provide the alternate view.

You are in Asia and it's 10am HKT/10pm ET. You are facing a problem/issue that you are 90% sure someone in the US knows the answer to.

You are faced with: - being blocked all day till US business hours

- trial and erroring your way through the problem

My view as the manager was always "I trust you to send me a message up till 10:30pm if you need something and I will respond. Don't abuse that but I'd rather be contacted late once in a while vs you being blocked all day."

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#109

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:30 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #103

distcs wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may be 2nd year CS student but the world they experience is not any less real than ours who have been in the industry for 10-20 years. You may disagree with them and that's fine. There is a sort of generation gap obviously and our opinions would differ from theirs. That's fine too. But what is really unacceptable to me is how you dismiss their viewpoint because they are a 2nd-year CS student! What if they were n…

No, his comment is spot on. A 2nd year CS student doesn't know jack shit about working in a professional capacity, and should not be sharing terrible advise that leads to burn out that other people may follow because they too don't know shit about working in a professional capacity. Advice carries accountability, and if you don't have the necessary experience to carry advice, it is much better to shut your trap than…

[deleted]

Re: When Work Didn’t Follow You Home

#110

Post by DeltaCoast » Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:32 PM UTC

doublerabbit wrote: post #77

spacemadness wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing the amount of people that answer late night chats from people in other timezones upsets me. What upsets me more are the people on vacation answering chats as soon as they’re pinged. That behavior changes work culture and expectations the more it happens. Bad managers love this sort of thing. I learned a long time ago that to keep my sanity I need a wall up between work hours and my personal life.

Its not always that easy. Enterprise just doesn't work that way. Where multiple timezones come in to play you need to be around. If I need email comms for an important document regarding to something super tight. I can't just wait till tomorrow. Information can be crucial at times and emails can cause break down in communications. Spreadsheets need to be spread and PowerPoints need to be pointed. Work yes, you can st…

Is there anyone on your team that just isn't around? Keeps a strict schedule - I've found that even working across time zones with tight deadlines, some people just have a hard stop.