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Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

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Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#231

Post by barbazoo »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #229
barbazoo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have yet to see a pilot test for UBI even begin. Pilots have been done all over the place [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income_pilots

It cannot be piloted without an entire country being subject to it. The whole point is that ALL the lowest income workers (janitors/fruit pickers/nursing home workers/etc) can quit their job, causing a massive re-pricing of labor and re-allocation of labor. It would cause lots of things to increase in price that are currently priced low simply because someone's parents happened to be from a poorer country that did no…

> It cannot be piloted without an entire country being subject to it.

I mean, that's you changing the definition of what a pilot is. Have you looked into how they were conducted in those countries and how they determine success/failure?

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#232

Post by verve_rat »

aidenn0 wrote: post #103
softfalcon wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, similar situation with: - My brother who is a writer while his wife works at an industrial job that pays exceedingly well - My friend who is an artist, whose husband owns an engineering firm with big medical device contracts - My other friend who is a nature photographer, whose husband works in tech - Yet another friend who is a musician, whose wife works in tech - Another friend who runs a dog shelter, whose h…

I'd like to see a list of jobs for which: 1. We generally value as a society 2. Two people both working the job and married to each other cannot afford to raise two children. There are some jobs which we romanticize as being this way (musicians and other artists being a big example), but are we okay with e.g. social workers all either starving, or from wealthy backgrounds?

Garbage people.

Aside: what is the gender neutral term for Garbage Man? Garbage people sounds like I'm disparaging them.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#233

Post by lotsoweiners »

8note wrote: post #78
aodonnell2536 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? A big motivating factor to be successful for most people is to set themselves apart financially from the masses. Edit: And of course, what would be the motivating factor for someone to give their best possible work, if the other 12 guys in their position get paid the same for less quality work?

The ubi is a minimum for everyone, rather than a maximum. The merit comes from people being able to take risks that otherwise only the wealthy could do

If you thought the rent is too damn high now, imagine what it’ll look like after everyone is getting free money.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#234

Post by lotsoweiners »

npteljes wrote: post #86
aodonnell2536 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? A big motivating factor to be successful for most people is to set themselves apart financially from the masses. Edit: And of course, what would be the motivating factor for someone to give their best possible work, if the other 12 guys in their position get paid the same for less quality work?

1. "How so?" UBI doesn't mean you can't earn more, this is not communism. 2. "what would be the motivating factor" They don't, UBI is not communism. And what you say is already true at many places, and the world is still turning. The motivating factor, with UBI, is the same without it: to achieve more. UBI would just let you not fall into homelessness and / or under the poverty threshold.

> UBI would just let you not fall into homelessness and / or under the poverty threshold.

How do you figure? Why wouldn’t landlords, businesses, etc just adjust their prices based on the UBI amount. They’ll be happy to collect more money courtesy of the taxpayers.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#235

Post by balfirevic »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #138
viscanti wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> younger people don't like the idea that in order to have freedom to pursue the things you love, you might need to marry someone who supports you financially. How many people have ever liked it? Hasn't it been one of the few avenues available for lots of people to pursue things they couldn't without financial help? What's a viable alternative?

I don't know about if people "liked" marrying in order to have financial support. My point was just that marrying someone to financially support you used to be culturally accepted, maybe even expected, and now it is less so. Especially since most marriages can't afford to keep the household on a single income anymore anyways.

> My point was just that marrying someone to financially support you used to be culturally accepted, maybe even expected, and now it is less so.

Man marrying his wive to financially support him was accepted and expected? Really?

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#236

Post by Balgair »

fiprofessor wrote: post #115

Nice essay, but some of the contemporary examples in this paragraph about the independenlty wealthy are not really that compelling: I’m not saying wealthy people can’t make incredible artists. Without Marcel Duchamp’s monthly allowance from his father throughout his adult life, we would never have Dada. Giacinto Scelsi was literally the heir and Duke of La Spezia castle estate. Something more contemporary? Grimes’ mo…

I think that the author belies his true poverty in the piece then. If a middle class lifestyle is seen to the author as 'rich', then he must be really really struggling. Knowing a few friends that are in the situation that the author is in, I'd agree.

Be like Einstein, make the post office work for you. Maybe that's a better way of thinking about it?

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#237

Post by aidenn0 »

verve_rat wrote: post #232
aidenn0 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a list of jobs for which: 1. We generally value as a society 2. Two people both working the job and married to each other cannot afford to raise two children. There are some jobs which we romanticize as being this way (musicians and other artists being a big example), but are we okay with e.g. social workers all either starving, or from wealthy backgrounds?

Garbage people. Aside: what is the gender neutral term for Garbage Man? Garbage people sounds like I'm disparaging them.

"Garbage collector"?

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#238

Post by e_i_pi_2 »

boring_twenties wrote: post #228
e_i_pi_2 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "U" part means everyone would get it, so you don't have to opt for it, and everyone would still pay taxes Another way to think of it is as a negative income tax - as a simple example the equation could be ((income * 0.2) - 20000), so if you make no money you get 20k, if you make 100k you pay no taxes and get nothing, if you make 200k you owe 20. This is using a flat tax rate for simplicity but then everyone get t…

The question is how many people making 200k will, given the option, take the free 20k and not work, therefore paying no taxes.

Agreed - I'm betting that it's a small percentage of people, because anyone making that much is motivated more by the societal recognition than the money - at that point even in the US all your basic needs are met and you're just looking for brownie points, and you'll still be looking for that with an extra 20k.

As another way to think about it - do bonuses disincentivize workers? At least personally that just makes me want to do more because it's freeing up a bunch of mental energy I need to spend on finances, and then I can focus on important things aside from basic survival

I don't personally know anyone that would opt for 20k/yr over their current salary, but I know several people making over 250k that want to make more to drive their sense of societal value.

I don't agree with it, but if you want to maintain the threat of poverty to force labor you can still do that with UBI

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#239

Post by chmod600 »

I don’t see what “the game is rigged” adds to an otherwise positive message, let alone why it comes first.

Why is it somehow bad that musicians need a day job? There are a lot of aspiring musicians out there compared to the audiences waiting for them to perform. A day job is a quite reasonable way to make sure they contribute something to society while we’re waiting to see if they are truly talented or not.

Would we have the same feelings about the “rigged” brewing industry that doesn’t give a young brewer a chance to develop his craft? After a certain point it seems like we’re forgetting that a job is about a contribution to society, not just an expression of some inner identity.

Re: Lifers, Dayjobbers, and the Independently Wealthy: A Letter to a Former Student

#240

Post by syndacks »

sandworm101 wrote: post #113

>> If anyone should have a shot in the various New York music scenes first and foremost, it should be local kids like Billy.If anyone should have a shot in the various New York music scenes first and foremost, it should be local kids like Billy. New York? A city founded on repeated waves of immigration. The city that put "give us your tired masses" on a big statue in the harbor. New York is not a city setup for local…

As a New Yorker, I feel the same anytime anyone talks about gentrification and/or their neighborhood changing. Zoom out a bit fella.
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