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Resilience requires helping each other out

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61–70 of 92 posts

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#61
post #48

Before we reliably had money, we had barter and "mutual aid." Now, some people think you just pay for stuff with money and if someone is "nice" to you, you don't "owe" them anything. A lot of people no longer seem to understand the implicit social contract behind such interactions and it can go bad places. From religion to community development work to politics, there have been myriad attempts to educate people that…

> Before we reliably had money [...] Now [...] A lot of people no longer seem to understand the implicit social contract behind Nah. Being a jerk isn't a modern invention. By every objective measure, misbehavior/criminality/violence et. al. have been getting inexorably better over the past centuries. If you have to make a pronouncement like this, it's more "In a world of excess and luxury, being pissed off about mino…

It did not even invented Karens. The complainer behavior existed too.

There might be more or less of this or that behavior and social behavior changes, but majority of "past was better" arguments are not born from historical knowledge.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#62

Before we reliably had money, we had barter and "mutual aid." Now, some people think you just pay for stuff with money and if someone is "nice" to you, you don't "owe" them anything. A lot of people no longer seem to understand the implicit social contract behind such interactions and it can go bad places. From religion to community development work to politics, there have been myriad attempts to educate people that…

>> Before we reliably had money, we had barter

As far as i know there’s no evidence for this. No historical economy which worked primarily on barter has been discovered.

As i understand it, Adam Smith suggested this was the case and it’s now given as rote learning in economics but that historians have never found conclusive proof that this is the case.

The wiki entry for barter has this:

“No ethnographic studies have shown that any present or past society has used barter without any other medium of exchange or measurement, and anthropologists have found no evidence that money emerged from barter.”

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#63

Before we reliably had money, we had barter and "mutual aid." Now, some people think you just pay for stuff with money and if someone is "nice" to you, you don't "owe" them anything. A lot of people no longer seem to understand the implicit social contract behind such interactions and it can go bad places. From religion to community development work to politics, there have been myriad attempts to educate people that…

> Before we reliably had money, we had barter and "mutual aid."

That’s a reasonable supposition at the most primitive level, but there’s not really evidence for that especially the former, as attractive as the conjectured barter => money narrative is.

Its quite possible that the actual chain is non-exchange mutual support (“mutual aid” is a specific fairly modern concept that may not be a good model) => explicit quid-pro-quo with money => barter as a fallback when money fails and until a new currency is adopted by convention.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social contracts are indeed the prime example. But its not clear how we can use them effectively going forward as everything seems to be working against them. E.g., rapid social evolution, urbanization and migration creates strangers that only adhere to minimal common norms. There is also the ambiguous role of social media. While frequently accused of inducing toxicity and polarization, this may actually promote a ne…

The solution is to become wise. People want to just follow rules on how what to do, but in interactions with other people there is no such thing. Learn about people, learn to read people, signs of who is not to be trusted, why they are saying what they are saying. Don't fall in to any web somebody has woven, no matter how much you yearn to let go of control. The last is the most important. Most people's highest desir…

Seems like you’re addressing why social norma failed and people had to adopt legal systems.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#65
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the way of life for any community before industrial revolution. It appears that all attempts at creating such communities have more or less failed, because they eventually become coopted either for or against capitalistic economy.

They tend not to fail when religion is a pillar in the community. The Amish and Mennonites are great examples.

Feminist concerns aside, I don’t think mutual aid has really succeeded in a hard hierarchical society like these who are explicitly patriarchal, even if it appears like it does to external observers.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#66
post #36

This is why I tell everyone who'll listen that if you want to prep for a disaster, step 0 is to hold a block party. Most people don't even know their neighbor's names!

Build Communities not Bunkers

Yup, the first thing that people without prepping will go after preppers. No amount of bullets and doors will fend off the sheer hunger.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#67

Before we reliably had money, we had barter and "mutual aid." Now, some people think you just pay for stuff with money and if someone is "nice" to you, you don't "owe" them anything. A lot of people no longer seem to understand the implicit social contract behind such interactions and it can go bad places. From religion to community development work to politics, there have been myriad attempts to educate people that…

Nah, humans work the same as we always have: we become indebted to each other.

Cash is this wacky invention by which we cancel debt, specifically so we don't owe each other anything, relationship over, see you later, don't @ me.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They tend not to fail when religion is a pillar in the community. The Amish and Mennonites are great examples.

Feminist concerns aside, I don’t think mutual aid has really succeeded in a hard hierarchical society like these who are explicitly patriarchal, even if it appears like it does to external observers.

You mean like Japan or China? Or Koreas? No success there, nope /s

But they drank all the Western kool-aid they could, though and it slowly shows.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a complex topic, but it's important to recognize that, to a large extent, > you just pay for stuff with money and if someone is "nice" to you, you don't "owe" them anything is kind of the whole point of money . More specifically, it allows you to trade with random strangers, without having to first develop and afterwards maintain social relationships with them. It's what, for better or worse, let humanity form g…

Yes, it is a complex topic and one that disproportionately impacts some demographics. It is related to the phenomenon of unpaid internships where getting your foot in the door requires you to be able to work for free for a substantial period of time. This has been criticized as a form of gatekeeping because young adults from already prosperous families can comfortably do this and people from the lower classes cannot.…

> Upper class society seems to still honor those implicit social contracts, but only if you are already part of the in crowd and your disfavor could come back to bite them.

And this is exactly how "barter and >" worked "Before we reliably had money"; this is exactly "the implicit social contract behind such interactions" that you refer to.

Upper class society is a small group, pretty close to the point of everyone in it knowing each other. The average degree of separation[0] is going to be less than 2; I'd bet excluding a few outliers and wannabes[1], the maximum degree of separation will be 2. Meaning, if you're upper class, everyone else in upper class is either your acquaintance, or an acquaintance of your acquaintance. At that scale, the informal social mechanisms reign supreme. They may be influenced or channeled by the formal system of laws, but they're not replaced by it.

(Note that this isn't the "lowest" / most implicit level of group mechanics. Upper classes tend to have codes of conduct, etiquette, honor codes, etc. That's the consequence of size and weak binding of the group. The average degree of separation is still greater than 1, and even those you know directly, you may not hang around with much - so you need some structure to boost the implicit, informal social self-regulation mechanism. In a way, those upper classes sit at the intermediate point between early, small human tribes, and organized societies that came later.)

Conversely, if you're poor, you're in a huge social class, and your social interactions are dominated by those with total strangers. Average degree of separation is above 2, probably above 3. You're almost always dealing with strangers who themselves are also almost always dealing with strangers, and most of the time those dealings are effectively one-off - you have one interaction with a random person, and then neither of you are likely to ever cross paths again[2].

The point I'm getting at is that most people in the modern world have a large amount of one-off, transactional interactions with others. Such interactions are too brief and too weak to allow for bonds to form - and without that, there's little in terms of mutual obligations, or mutual care. What you get is the baseline "stranger treatment".

This is not to justify the conduct of people taking advantage of others, knowingly or not. I'm just saying that at this scale, all most of us can expect is the baseline "stranger treatment". Money isn't the direct cause here - the scale of our societies is. Money is merely what allows societies to scale this far, and it shouldn't be blamed for problems that are problems of scale.

As for the "common phenomenon of well-heeled individuals knowingly preying upon lower classes" - that is indeed a challenge, because at this scale, implicit social defenses (like people having reputation and getting shunned if it gets too bad) don't work. The options we have instead are more difficult to use and slow-acting - teaching people empathy, promoting a more benevolent culture, and adjusting laws to discourage bad behavior. It works well for many things, not quite well for others, and takes a lot of time to adjust - but again, consequences of scale.

--

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation

[1] - And geography. E.g. the upper class in Poland and in Germany may know each other well, but they might have few direct connections to upper class in e.g. South Korea. But that's just because they rarely deal with each other, and thus doesn't impact the thrust of my argument.

[2] - To this, too, there are degrees. Consider us here specifically - you and me. We're both aware of each other, crossed paths on HN many times over the years - but those interactions are infrequent and inconsequential enough that we aren't much more than strangers to each other. We may be nice to each other, and I do consider you wise, but we aren't really taking each other into account during our daily lives.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#70
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

on the contrary, everyone of us needs to realize that we are part of a global community and that all of our actions accumulate to have an effect across the world. so instead of saying that this will never work because we are to diverse, instead we need to strive and MAKE IT WORK! put aside our differences, find common ground and build a global cooperative community that includes every human being on this planet.

Did a milquetoast motivation speaker write this? "Everyone just needs to realize that we all have to be nice to each other and we all succeed" rarely even works in a kindergarten classroom of 15 students, there's not really even a system for scaling that up to a city of a million people. Imo it's naive to think that this is ever achievable given how powerful the human nature to find an in-group is.

> given how powerful the human nature to find an in-group is

this is true as a general behavior, but its practical relevance is highly variable and culture dependend. For the longest span of our existence tribes routinely attacked eachother, decapitating for fun, enslaving for profit, and it was deemed ok.

by and large we dont do that anymore, though this is the instictual behavior being tapped to support, e.g., organized large scale war.

anything as large scale as organized war, any form of economic and political organisation might be building on primal behaviors but is not equivalent to them. a lot of cold calculation, ideology and even trial-and-error is involved and the end result is highly variable.

education, factual information and candid discussions between people is what will help us ensure in and out-groups are confined to sports and games and do not put our collective welfare at risk

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