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Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

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Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#31

Post by mindslight »

mason55 wrote: post #21
BluePen7 wrote: post #11

It's funny, in high school due to social perceptions I didn't align myself with the "shop kids", and took exclusively computer-based electives. It's led me to a lucrative career in programming, but now all my hobbiest time is actually spent learning the same hands-on skills I would have gotten in shop class, I love doing automotive repairs, I even learned how to fix my own AC system, and want to learn to weld. Electr…

Grab some Arduinos, LEDs and buttons/switches and you'll learn about electricity pretty quickly with no real risk. It'll get you to a point where you should be comfortable enough working on mains electricity because you'll understand what's dangerous and what isn't. And if you're in the US and a healthy adult, you're probably not going to kill yourself if you take a zap at 120V/15A.

Everything after "Grab some Arduinos, LEDs and buttons/switches and you'll learn" is terrible advice.

Wiring mains circuits is about craftsmanship and the ability to repeatably follow technical rules for low probability events that were nevertheless "written in blood". Tinkering with electronic circuits is not going to get you the engineering rigor you need to come at mains circuits from first principles.

You certainly can learn DIY house wiring safely as its own thing! The point is that they are just completely different skillsets, and you shouldn't be extrapolating confidence from low voltage circuits into mains wiring.

Also no, while 170 volt mains voltage (US residential peak voltage) is not likely to "kill" you, the actual risks are things like house fires from short circuits and intermittent connections. If you're doing anything where you're worried about getting "zapped", you're doing things horribly wrong in the first place.

Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#32

Post by mech987987 »

mindslight wrote: post #31
mason55 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grab some Arduinos, LEDs and buttons/switches and you'll learn about electricity pretty quickly with no real risk. It'll get you to a point where you should be comfortable enough working on mains electricity because you'll understand what's dangerous and what isn't. And if you're in the US and a healthy adult, you're probably not going to kill yourself if you take a zap at 120V/15A.

Everything after " Grab some Arduinos, LEDs and buttons/switches and you'll learn " is terrible advice. Wiring mains circuits is about craftsmanship and the ability to repeatably follow technical rules for low probability events that were nevertheless "written in blood". Tinkering with electronic circuits is not going to get you the engineering rigor you need to come at mains circuits from first principles. You certa…

I disagree regarding how much overlap there is between low voltage skill sets and high voltage skill sets. Even though the consequences are different, understanding when the circuit is energized and not is important, understanding the path of current flow is important, and lots of other concepts intuitively overlap.

For most household wiring tasks, turning off the circuit at the breaker box is the main safety provision. Using a wire nut properly is a bit tricky but not the worst thing in the world, and I don't trust a rushed contractor to tighten a wire nut any better than myself.

Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#33

Post by majjam »

BluePen7 wrote: post #11

It's funny, in high school due to social perceptions I didn't align myself with the "shop kids", and took exclusively computer-based electives. It's led me to a lucrative career in programming, but now all my hobbiest time is actually spent learning the same hands-on skills I would have gotten in shop class, I love doing automotive repairs, I even learned how to fix my own AC system, and want to learn to weld. Electr…

You might find this HN discussion interesting, its full of good explanations for different electrical concepts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26362492

Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#34

Post by mindslight »

mech987987 wrote: post #32
mindslight wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything after " Grab some Arduinos, LEDs and buttons/switches and you'll learn " is terrible advice. Wiring mains circuits is about craftsmanship and the ability to repeatably follow technical rules for low probability events that were nevertheless "written in blood". Tinkering with electronic circuits is not going to get you the engineering rigor you need to come at mains circuits from first principles. You certa…

I disagree regarding how much overlap there is between low voltage skill sets and high voltage skill sets. Even though the consequences are different, understanding when the circuit is energized and not is important, understanding the path of current flow is important, and lots of other concepts intuitively overlap. For most household wiring tasks, turning off the circuit at the breaker box is the main safety provisi…

There is overlap for design/analysis. The problem is that overlap is insufficient to do mains wiring safely. Engineers doing their own work is an inspector cliche for a reason.

> Using a wire nut properly is a bit tricky but not the worst thing in the world, and I don't trust a rushed contractor to tighten a wire nut any better than myself.

This ties right into my point though. Low power circuits generally don't use wire nuts, and even when they might, they don't use thicker solid wires generally used for mains wiring. So you most likely learned wire nuts as their own separate skill, rather than from low voltage circuit work. My point is you've got to learn all those mains details in their own right, rather than thinking it's just like low voltage/power wiring.

(I totally agree about trusting yourself versus a rushed contractor! Emphatically yes - please do learn to DIY! My point is about the learning path to get there)

Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#35

Post by cmollis »

browningstreet wrote: post #16
BluePen7 wrote: post #11

It's funny, in high school due to social perceptions I didn't align myself with the "shop kids", and took exclusively computer-based electives. It's led me to a lucrative career in programming, but now all my hobbiest time is actually spent learning the same hands-on skills I would have gotten in shop class, I love doing automotive repairs, I even learned how to fix my own AC system, and want to learn to weld. Electr…

Both, he tried to tell us… Brian: I'm a **in' idiot because I can't make a lamp? Bender: No, you're a genius because you can't make a lamp. Brian: What do you know about Trigonometry? Bender: I could care less about Trigonometry. Brian: Bender, did you know without Trigonometry there'd be no engineering? Bender: Without lamps, there'd be no light.

Breakfast club. Good flick

Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#36

Post by imtringued »

Why bother? Western countries doubled down on climate change as their immigration policy. There won't be a labor shortage in the future. The only shortage will be the number of guardsmen patrolling the border and the problem with those is that they need to be loyal and swiftly execute "permanent" orders or else their backlog will grow like that of a college student who constantly has to correct his homework and resubmit it.

Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#37

Post by bsder »

BluePen7 wrote: post #11

It's funny, in high school due to social perceptions I didn't align myself with the "shop kids", and took exclusively computer-based electives. It's led me to a lucrative career in programming, but now all my hobbiest time is actually spent learning the same hands-on skills I would have gotten in shop class, I love doing automotive repairs, I even learned how to fix my own AC system, and want to learn to weld. Electr…

> Electrical is the tricky one because it's the one with the most consequences for mistakes.

I disagree. Woodworking is WAY more dangerous.

I have had exactly one mishap working with eletricity over the years. Somebody wired a piece of industrial equipment backwards (neutral as hot) and I got the shit shocked out of me.

I have had quite a few near misses in woodworking even while being amazingly aware. I know of no old woodworker who has all of his fingertips.

This video is about woodworking injuries gotten by YouTube streamers (CAUTION: Graphic!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc-lIs8VNIc

The one I never thought about was the final one (the table saw accident). It was a dual combination failure. He took an injury on his right arm which drew all his attention which then caused an accident with his left hand.

Yeah, I'm a big believer in safety equipment, even when it's inconvenient, after thinking about that one.

Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#38

Post by toomuchtodo »

skullone wrote: post #15
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plumber in the midwest I use for some properties just let me know their new rate is $160/hour. My electrician is booked months out. I had to trench 24-30" deep and lay 4" schedule 40 non metallic conduit (PVC) ~120 feet myself to upgrade the service entrance at a new property.

I like your username. I too had to trench for new utilities, and remodel half my house myself because no trades are available in time for movein

Hello fellow Renaissance person and building sciences scholar :)

Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#39

Post by prudentpomelo »

I took shop class in high school and was a welder for 9 years after I graduated. I think we can absolutely shorten the entry into the trades. I would have loved to work an entry level welding job in the summers once I turned 14. It would have been a whole lot better than all the dangerous shit I did working for farmers. There is so much untapped interest in the trades among teenagers.

A neighbor kid I grew up with, struggled with acting out in school. His home life was massively disfunctional. However, he loved to tinker and play with all things mechanical. I think an apprenticeship in high school would have been life changing for kids like him.

Re: Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

#40

Post by jeiden »

jeiden wrote: post #2

We'll be short 1M electricians by 2020. Bringing vocational training back into high schools will help us ditch fossil fuels, bridge the skilled workforce gap, and empower more young people to succeed.

Apologies all - *2030. Source is Rewiring America, page 40: https://downloads.ctfassets.net/v4qx5q5o44nj/4LvLQrqfbIcpgvk...
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