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There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

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Re: There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

#91

Post by mortil »

leif wrote: post #24
leephillips wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked article was accurate. You are confused. "I'm an ex-audio engineer" Hard to believe. "The distinct sound of the triangle constitutes of a high fundamental frequency, ballpark 10kHz" That's a pretty high note - higher than the top key on the piano. But an "audio engineer" would know that. "many very high-pitch harmonics" Since the next harmonic after the fundamental would be at 20khz, which only young people…

You clearly have little to no musical background, and think that your basic math skills are a substitute. The overtones present in a cymbal or triangle are not straight multiples of the fundamental, they are chaotic, and are very important in determining the timbre. Anyone (and I mean that) can easily tell the difference between a cymbal with and without a low-pass filter with the threshold around 22kHz, because thes…

If anyone can hear it, then surely it must have been verified through a double-blind test. Can you provide a citation?

Re: There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

#92

Post by zzygan »

This is a good article, however the guy who has been pushing this for years and years now, is a man called Dan Lavry. In fact he wrote a very good, rigorous explanation a few years back,in very readable and well written form.

http://www.lavryengineering.com/documents/Sampling_Theory.pd...

Re: There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

#94

Post by blackhole »

You always record stuff at 24-bit/192 kHz for many reasons usually involving minimizing analog artifacts and to give you a lot of information to work with. You use 32-bit float wavs to transport stuff around so you don't have to worry about normalizing levels and clipping. Lossless formats drastically improve the quality of transients by an enormous degree. But every single objection to this is either ignoring the points of the article, or talking about the benefits of recording at high fidelity, when this entire article is pointing out that once you have _finished a mix_, there is no reason to distribute things in 24-bit/192kHz. Most speakers can't even play about 20kHz anyway, which makes the entire point moot. I don't care if you have a bajillion kHz, the speakers can't play about 20 kHz, so your screwed.

Re: There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

#95

Post by davesims »

hackermom wrote: post #39
Derbasti wrote: post #7

He raises a lot of valid points. However... 192 kHz is clearly overkill for listening. Not so for further editing of the data. Same goes for 16/24 bit, however, the difference between 16 and 24 bit is actually audible. 44100 is not a bad sampling rate, but it necessitates very sharp aliasing filters, which are audibly bad. A bit more headroom is well needed there. That bit about intermodulation distortion is complete…

Same goes for 16/24 bit, however, the difference between 16 and 24 bit is actually audible No, the difference is not audible at all. At 16 bits of depth on a normal low-level audio signal (~0.3 volts), we're talking about less than 0.000005 volts per amplitude step. This difference gets lost in the THD already at the DAC in your audio output stage. Then it gets lost again in the amplifier. And again in the cable to y…

Heh, it's funny to see this late-nineties debate get re-hashed here. Also kind of fun.

If it were true that there's no audible difference between 16 and 24 bit, companies like Alesis, Otari, ProTools, etc. wouldn't have spent the last 15 years ditching 16 bit like an old pair of smelly sneakers. (better metaphors welcome).

Seriously, anyone who has sat down in a real listening environment for 5 minutes A/Bing 16 vs 20 bit, 16 vs 24, etc. hears the difference immediately. There's no question. This is why you can buy ADAT 16 bit 'blackfaces' for $100, down from their original $4,000.

Re: There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

#96

Post by xiphmont »

davesims wrote: post #71
leephillips wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked article was accurate. You are confused. "I'm an ex-audio engineer" Hard to believe. "The distinct sound of the triangle constitutes of a high fundamental frequency, ballpark 10kHz" That's a pretty high note - higher than the top key on the piano. But an "audio engineer" would know that. "many very high-pitch harmonics" Since the next harmonic after the fundamental would be at 20khz, which only young people…

Another "ex audio engineer" here, you can believe or not at your leisure. Many hours spent in high-end recording and mastering environments. I'm not sure what your background in audio is, but everything he says is correct. High end frequencies well past 15k and up (22.1k actually) are widely acknowledged to influence the lower frequencies and play a huge role in the perception of the quality of a recording. This is a…

As much respect as I have for Bob Ludwig's hard won mastering skills, he also strongly believes in $n,000/foot speaker cable, which is what he has installed at Gateway. So by all means give him well deserved props, but don't assume he's an expert on all aspects of audio theory or practice.

Re: There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

#97

Post by hackermom »

yzhou wrote: post #69
hackermom wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same goes for 16/24 bit, however, the difference between 16 and 24 bit is actually audible No, the difference is not audible at all. At 16 bits of depth on a normal low-level audio signal (~0.3 volts), we're talking about less than 0.000005 volts per amplitude step. This difference gets lost in the THD already at the DAC in your audio output stage. Then it gets lost again in the amplifier. And again in the cable to y…

why do you think "This difference gets lost in the THD already at the DAC "? Do you have numbers to back it up? What's the noise floor of DAC? What's the noise floor of an output stage? Do you have the number?

Many years of building audio equipment (in particular analog synthesizers), and equally many years of being meticulously anal with getting the best components for my circuits, reading specifications of down to every single op-amp I've ever employed, is why I think so.

I am not saying that there aren't any DACs on the planet that can't handle five millionths of a volt, but I am saying that five millionths of a volt isn't surviving through the particular DACs and the rest of the electronics used in your PC/living room hi-fi audio equipment.

Re: There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

#98

Post by agentgt »

sjwright wrote: post #78

I must say I get rather irritated when people spend time worrying about dubious 'tweaker' methods to improve their audio, when the most under-performing component of most people's sound equipment also has the lowest-hanging fruit: The room itself. When people ask me where they should spend money to improve the quality of their hi-fi or home theater system, in nearly every case my response will be something like "get…

I agree the damn room matters so much more. Also the distortion of most speakers is already the bottle neck in most people's systems.

Re: There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

#99

Post by Anechoic »

sjwright wrote: post #78

I must say I get rather irritated when people spend time worrying about dubious 'tweaker' methods to improve their audio, when the most under-performing component of most people's sound equipment also has the lowest-hanging fruit: The room itself. When people ask me where they should spend money to improve the quality of their hi-fi or home theater system, in nearly every case my response will be something like "get…

Agree one-hundred percent about the room (although the prescription isn't always as simple as "get a thicker rug" etc).

The other issue regarding high-frequency sound reproduction is that in most cases, the loudspeaker won't be outputting much beyond 22-25 kHz (assuming very good quality loudspeakers, cheap consumer grade units might struggle to hit a -6 dB point at 18 kHz) and even for the speakers that have usable output at that range, the directivity at those frequencies will be so narrow that your head will have to be locked in the perfect "sweet spot" to hear anything.

Re: There is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format.

#100

Post by untangle »

This article is one of the most lucid and accurate that I have read on this topic.

However, one thing that's missing here (and in nearly all other similar pieces) is a full discussion of the prerequisites of the sampling theorem. For example, the signal must be bandwidth-limited (and no finite-time signal can be).

But this is a minor concern, as there are many elements in the analog domain of the recording and playback chains that serve as low-pass filters - starting with the mics. So bandwidth-limiting is effectively achieved.

For a similar reason, the discussion of the "harmful" effect of high-frequencies to playback electronics and loudspeakers to be a bit overdone IMO. Peruse the excellent lab results of modern audio gear on Stereophile's web site. You'll find that bandwidths exceeding 30kHz are rare.

One last thing. When doing subjective "testing," keep in mind that what some folks are hearing may be limitations of their gear. For example, most DACs derive their clocks for higher sampling rates (88/96/176/192) by clock-multiplier circuits. IOW, 44kHz and 48kHz are the only ones clocked directly by a crystal. These multiplier circuits are often noisy, contributing to jitter. The audible effect of this jitter is hard to predict.

Bob

PS As an avid audiophile, I find the clash of subjectivists and objectivists on this normally-buttoned-down forum to be a bit of a trip.

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