Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry • Hacker News Board

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#211

Post by frankzinger » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 9:38 AM UTC

ntr-- wrote: post #204

Spivak wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded and thirded. Nothing is more soul draining then doing nothing for 8 hours a day, the idea that devs are lazy and don't want to code is like the antithesis of our whole profession. Most of us do it in our free time. When you actually have a real actionable thing to work on that gives the line workers meaningful "wins" the management pyramid flips and they all become "servant managers" trying to direct the exc…

> Most of us do it in our free time. I used to believe this but after my most recent position I no longer do. A lot of the developers there didn't code outside of work hours, or if they did it was just using the same technologies as the day to day. When asked what tools we could use to filter for higher quality candidates in open roles I responded: > Ask them to show you a personal project they're proud of, that will…

> but after some time of candidates having nothing to show the company gave up and outsourced. There are simply a lot of uninspired developers who are just in it for the money now.

Or it could be that they really do like making software but they have other hobbies they enjoy much more.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#212

Post by qohen » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 10:02 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #98

endtime wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of why I left Google was poor leadership at the VP level. The org wasn't set up for success and - as far as I could tell - the vision was myopic and incoherent. VP performance was more or less opaque to me for most of my career there, but eventually I got senior and experienced enough to have a real opinion. Really liked my direct manager, but we were in it together, and there was nothing he could have done abou…

+1 on this. Spent 4 years at Google including spending time as a TLM. Left around 2020 so my impressions may be a bit out of date. I spent time in both the Geo and Search PAs, and IMO Google's biggest problem is listless senior leadership. Google's orgs tend to lack product vision - there's a lot of abdication to front-line teams to ideate, come up with their own ideas, and ship features. My VP-levels were AFAIK only…

every incoming new VP or Director would wipe the slate clean for their own multi-year plan, and then get promoted/demoted out of the position before it went anywhere. Rinse and repeat with the next senior leader.

Ah, the "bungee boss" -- straight out of an old Dilbert cartoon:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090122103825/http://dilbert.co...

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#213

Post by globalreset » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 10:33 AM UTC

greatpostman wrote: post #9

The older I get the more appalled I am at what managers are bringing to the table versus senior engineers.

Manager are for managing low skilled workers that need supervision and help. The idea that you hire "the best SWEs" and then you have to slap a manager to oversee them like they are burger flippers is ridiculous on its face.

SWEs might benefit from some help from experienced technical leadership - someone to consult, get feedback from etc. and from bureaucratic assistance (help get paperwork out of the way), but typically "SWE manager" position is akin to fast-food chain manager in a SWE shop.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#214

Post by dustingetz » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 10:44 AM UTC

RankingMember wrote: post #20

JamesHinnek wrote: post #16

Just a reminder that lazy managers are the source of burnout for those who are under them. As a manager I can say, there is no easier job than just forwarding requests from directors directly to developers, not planning, and promising crazy deadlines to avoid conflict with higher management. If someone is being paid more, this person has to work more, I have seen so many people becoming managers just to actually avoi…

> If someone is being paid more, this person has to work more In my experience, pay rarely has any kind of correlation to the amount of work being done. I see it merely as a pay for responsibility for the work of those under you or, more succinctly, "being paid to throw yourself under the bus in lieu of anyone you're managing".

pay is directly correlated with how much money your boss has. ice cream shops don’t pay $100k salaries. you want to double your salary, brand yourself a “consultant” and sell directly to executives, middle management needs 10 approvals to do anything.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#215

Post by yunohn » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 11:22 AM UTC

fmc30 wrote: post #206

policepost wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former engineer and now manager, it's not easier. It's different. Like, yes I write much less code, but I also have to show much more empathy and be able to communicate with different people differently. Helping every engineer on the team advance their careers is tough, because everyone heard feedback differently. Combine that with the one on ones where someone tells you about how shitty their life has been rece…

Thanks for your comment. I'm pretty sick of the low effort takes on this site (read: internet in general). Every role is different. Each has its own challenges and anybody can be good or bad in a given role. Too many people trying to blame upper management, blame L1 managers, blame developers, without understanding, or even attempting to understand, the challenges they face. It doesn't just work like that. I'm 9 year…

Personally, I think ICs complaining about bad Managers is acceptable. The latter have actual power and direct control over the individual’s career and life. It can be a tough job that comes with a lot of responsibility, but lots of us have faced the worst sides of this.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#216

Post by random_kris » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 12:04 PM UTC

throwaway298420 wrote: post #82

eysquared wrote: post #32

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

> In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. Since an acquisition at a company I used to work for full-time and remained on call as a contractor with for some time after, I have seen this happen in a very impressive way. Critical tech debt has gone unpaid as site performance degrades to the point of outages, but the new staf…

How to "fix" this ? I can see this all the time where I work. I call people out on it. And from bosses POV I am seen as the guy who delivers.. but from peers perspective I am a bit of a hard ass... And I feel like that anytime I don't look and inspect their work they go into this mode, maybe even as a sort of a revenge ?

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#217

Post by lupire » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 1:04 PM UTC

flashgordon wrote: post #183

eysquared wrote: post #32

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

So spot on. You see tons of articles and "thought leadership" on Managers vs Leaders as if managers are holding a company back through incompetence or malice. Oh man. Reality is leadership sets processes because they believe the "last ounce of juice" hasnt been squeezed. I can point you to a whole bunch of leadership rubriks (at faang/maangs) that is all about showing "impact" vs getting actual work down - and they a…

Leadership doesn't care about squeeze juice, except CFO. Leadership is playing Game of Thrones backstabbing each other for promotions and ignoring the product.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#218

Post by lupire » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #106

Spivak wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded and thirded. Nothing is more soul draining then doing nothing for 8 hours a day, the idea that devs are lazy and don't want to code is like the antithesis of our whole profession. Most of us do it in our free time. When you actually have a real actionable thing to work on that gives the line workers meaningful "wins" the management pyramid flips and they all become "servant managers" trying to direct the exc…

>Laziness is the natural response to the work you're doing not mattering There's a lot of meaningful tech work out there that pays way less than Google. Why don't the Googlers bored from idling take it?

I like money.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#219

Post by lupire » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 1:08 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #145

cratermoon wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason lots of people don't move and change jobs at the drop of a hat: responsibilities outside work. Kids in school, a mortgage, debts, friends, community participation. Once your lifestyle has lined up with a certain pay scale, cutting back is difficult. Upending the lives of your family to go for a more meaningful job that pays ways less? It happens. It's not pretty.

I wasn't only referring to just people who are tied down to one place and one lifestyle. There's plenty of tech people who are in a stage of their lives when they are easily mobile and still live a frugal lifestyle, yet almost everyone chooses the same wealthy and least ethical companies, while complaining their jobs are boring and unethical. Not judging people who take well paying jobs at unethical companies, but th…

Your post is absolutely disgusting for no benefit.

It makes your question not worrg answering.

Be better.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#220

Post by lupire » Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 1:11 PM UTC

GreedClarifies wrote: post #75

eysquared wrote: post #32

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

“ The blame there lies solely in upper level leadership ” Not what I saw. Leadership was shockingly hard working. I have never seen a person who works harder than Calder at GOOG. Urs never stopped as well. Lower level VPs were always “on” as well. But VPs can’t do everything, they can’t peer into everyday lives of the lower levels, the orgs are too big. I think you want something superhuman from them. The problem in…

That was years ago, before Urs responded to crumbling infrastructure by telling the whole company the the would fire junior engineers who were near a keyboard next time a system went down.