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Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

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Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#171
I have been in such a position in a Tech Mid-Cap (400 million MAU, 11B market value) and it was personally the best job that I had in my life in terms of cushiness and low pressure; but retrospectively it has almost thrown me into the oblivion of technical obsolescence.

Fast forward, most of the days were 1 hour and half meetings to decide things like where we would spend company money in the next team event or how we would consume the credits from GCP in endless PoCs, and I came to a point where I started to do pro bono work just to keep my skills up to date.

My manager at that time wasn't technical at all, and he barely understood what we were doing. In more than 4 months of work, we had less than 2 hours of 1:1 conversations; and he was one of the most active people on the RSU channel to get clarifications about taxes and so on.

After 4 months I saw that I was lacking some 'real work' and moved to another position in a less capitalized company, but with some technical problems to solve.

The sad thing about it is that several folks that worked with me are now trapped in this company and inwards they know that if they go to the market it will be tough to find something so good on the personal level.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always a good sign when an exec comes in and lists things that are working well at the moment.

This is how you do high quality skip levels: 1. What is going well? 2. What is not going well? 3. What can be done to improve? Pretty much know what's going on. Anyone who BSes the second question needs to be layered or leave.

Speaking truth to power is rarely easy. Some leaders can take genuine feedback others cannot. Until you have a good pulse on the situation, is it really surprising most people default to inauthentic critiques?

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#173

Having worked in finance for many years at various types of firms (banks, hedge funds, fintech startups) and hired many FAANG folks, this breakdown from a former FAANG hire put it best: "At FAANG, there were always more people than work to do. This led to lots of infighting for the best projects. In finance, there is always more work than people so the fighting is more about trying to make multiple stakeholders happy…

> In finance, there is always more work than people

It would seem the general theme is: If the work is "cool" or "new", there isn't much of it to go around. If it is "legacy" or "profitable", no one wants to be in the same building as it.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#174
post #71
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of why I left Google was poor leadership at the VP level. The org wasn't set up for success and - as far as I could tell - the vision was myopic and incoherent. VP performance was more or less opaque to me for most of my career there, but eventually I got senior and experienced enough to have a real opinion. Really liked my direct manager, but we were in it together, and there was nothing he could have done abou…

If you're willing to share, how long ago did you quit?

April 2022, after 10.5 years there.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You had managers who "took the fall" for the team? Correct. In addition, sometimes advocating for those under you is a sacrificial act, because you're putting your reputation on the line.

Sounds performative rather than anything real at stake. Managers are expected to lay down rhetoric about accountability and contextualizing their team's failure.

> Managers are expected to lay down rhetoric about accountability and contextualizing their team's failure.

It sounds like the management philosophies at our respective orgs are very different.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#176
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's also an issue that execs can create the appearance of being busy (and may indeed spend a ridiculous number of hours in meetings) but it can be hard to see if they're contributing anything valuable. I was at a startup which over a period of years repeatedly had new execs come in, claim that something was wrong with our planning or goal-setting process, "restart" the whole thing in a way which was virtu…

"It can be hard to see if they're contributing anything valuable" Indeed. It's easier to evaluate "the appearance of change" than actual value or improvement. When I consider this problem, my current belief is that only long-term discipline from senior leadership can change this system.

Things that management knows about and worries about consistently, like 5 years and still going strong, do trickle down and make a difference, and eventually build a culture. Things that management changes every year end up making even the most good-hearted employees get cynical and uninvolved in those things.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, I don't think that the basic idea there—senior management being primarily concerned with making the organization work well for the people in it, with the people further down the ladder being the ones directly in charge of the products—is inherently a bad or unworkable one. It just requires the senior leadership to openly acknowledge that it means they don't own the products , and shouldn't be the ones m…

I pretty fundamentally disagree, though of course I don't think your argument is unreasonable for a smaller product. For companies where products are relatively small and largely disconnected from one another I think your approach can work - senior leadership is largely concerned about maintaining the organization while explicitly delegating product ownership to team leads below. The problem is that this falls part r…

Mmm, I'm not saying I entirely disagree—I haven't worked at Google, or any organization of that size—but it seems to me that part of the problem here is not simply "shipping the org chart", but rather the fact that the org chart is poorly, well...organized.

Why should Google Maps be completely separate products for Android and iOS (and, potentially, web)? If you have one product, with...I dunno, something like multiple release teams? handling the different platforms, surely that helps to pool knowledge and maintain (rough) feature parity?

And honestly, I think think this focus on each product being its own entirely separate island is a big part of what's wrong with Google in general—it seems like it contributes to the pointless proliferation of mediocre messenger apps, for one thing.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#178

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

Exactly matches my anecdotal experience as well. Thanks for sharing.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always a good sign when an exec comes in and lists things that are working well at the moment.

This is how you do high quality skip levels: 1. What is going well? 2. What is not going well? 3. What can be done to improve? Pretty much know what's going on. Anyone who BSes the second question needs to be layered or leave.

Isn't the necessity of skip meetings itself a pathological sign? The only thing you legitimately need to talk to your manager's manager about is things your manager can't handle -- i.e. mostly problems with and/or praise for your manager. Everything else should go through your manager, or what are they there for?

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pretty fundamentally disagree, though of course I don't think your argument is unreasonable for a smaller product. For companies where products are relatively small and largely disconnected from one another I think your approach can work - senior leadership is largely concerned about maintaining the organization while explicitly delegating product ownership to team leads below. The problem is that this falls part r…

Mmm, I'm not saying I entirely disagree—I haven't worked at Google, or any organization of that size—but it seems to me that part of the problem here is not simply "shipping the org chart", but rather the fact that the org chart is poorly, well...organized. Why should Google Maps be completely separate products for Android and iOS (and, potentially, web)? If you have one product, with...I dunno, something like multip…

> "Why should Google Maps be completely separate products for Android and iOS (and, potentially, web)?"

There are multiple reasons for this, but the most important one for this discussion is pretty simple: because of the number of people required to staff it.

You need to carve team boundaries somewhere - there are inherent limits to how many people a manager can manage, and how big of a team a single tech lead can effectively run. You can't have a standup with 50 people, and there's no coherent way for a single leader to track tasks across 100 people, but that's the kind of staffing required for products of this size.

A product like Maps is expansive - it covers anything from searching for places, walking directions, real-time driving directions, data ingestion, data quality, reviews, busyness indicators, recommendations, photos, street view, transit statuses, indoor navigation, etc etc. And that's a very cursory overview of what the app does. It naturally requires a very large number of engineers to create and maintain.

So out of sheer scale you must divide the team into some kind of structure. A floating pool of hundreds of engineers is clearly not feasible. So the question is how?

There are multiple schools of thought here: dividing by frontend platform is one way. Other companies divide functionally (i.e., the street view team owns street view across all platforms), but while there are pros and cons to each of these approaches, you can't escape the same fundamental premise: you have a lot of separate teams that need to coordinate.

And how those teams communicate, coordinate, and ship together is the job of the Director and VPs.

> "I think think this focus on each product being its own entirely separate island is a big part of what's wrong with Google in general"

Agreed! But this is another reason why you need to have Directors/VPs that are actively engaged in product (and in fact whose primary duty is to product) - they are the right level of abstraction where inter-product integration is decided. They are the ones responsible for making sure these products work coherently together and do not appear (or function) as islands unto themselves.

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