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InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

community.influxdata.com

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Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#241
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul: I'm surprised you didn't do a scream test. Not everyone is going to see those emails and even those that do may not understand what they are reading. Internally at my company we always do scream tests as part of our EOL process because we know we can't reach everyone, even our own employees. https://www.microsoft.com/insidetrack/blog/microsoft-uses-a-... Fun story: my mortgage got sold last year. Not the first…

> Not everyone is going to see those emails and even those that do may not understand what they are reading. If that's the case, these companies/people have no business using cloud services. Fair enough that you might not understand the ramification, in that case you contact support. If you don't see those email... that's on you. We operate out of a number of datacenters, they all communicate via email, giving us one…

Unless the cloud provider can provide proof that the person received and read such a notice, then they can still be sued for actual damages... and I'd be surprised if that doesn't happen in this case.

The fact is, there are many options from a cooldown, scream test, automated backup for migration/recovery... this organization did none of those things and absolutely deserves to lose massively as a result. This is a DATABASE as a Service... RETENTION should be one of the highest priorities.

For that matter, it would have been better if they auto-migrated in an OFF status, or otherwise backed up... just hitting the DELETE ALL DATA button is wrong. Several of the posters in the thread indicate they received no such emails.

Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#242
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was like: you guys should've FedEx'd me this in the first place. For all they knew, I wasn't getting their emails or letters in the first place because nothing had been sent signature required. I love the scream test, but the analogy you bring up actually - this seems unfair. The cost of Fedex'ing everyone is astounding (for many businesses). But I like the concept. Definitely a sort of "shut off the server for l…

The point of the story was that if you have something critical to communicate, you can't do it using the same methods that are also used for low-priority mostly junk and expect it to be acted upon. Surely a mortgage servicing company can afford to FedEx an envelope. I wouldn't expect Influx to do so.

For that matter, registered mail is another option that isn't as expensive as fedex... there's other options that are slightly more costly, and more noticeable than sending via the same structure that junk mail goes through.

I expressly don't use automated payments for my mortgage and auto loan(s) as I don't want to have an account miss... I didn't know my mortgage was sold/changed a couple months ago until I went online to change. The same happened with an auto loan a few years back as well.

Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#243
post #4

> According to the support, the notification emails to the users were sent on Feb 23, Apr 6 and May 15th. However, we did not receive those at all. If true, this is concerning. One message getting lost in spam understandable. But three over 6 months would imply they're being blacklisted and/or their mail sender is simply broken. Do serious companies not have canaries or other checks in place to ensure their notificat…

Even if all three emails were properly delivered, that is not sufficient notice for a storage service. Why is there not also a reminder on the dashboard? A financial service I use was recently purchased by another. The company has been aggressive in keeping me on the loop about what is upcoming. Maybe six months before the actual event a heads up. Again at two months. Then at one month. Then every week, along with co…

Even the dashboard isn't really enough... if I'm running a one-off application or many, I may not log into every dashboard for every single thing regularly. A scream test would have been most appropriate, combined with a backup and at least 30 days retention for migration.

Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#244
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems a banner was added to the UI: https://community.influxdata.com/t/getting-weird-results-fro...

It says "The UI was updated with a closure message for these regions." Depends on where and how this message was added. It also means that they had no monitoring in place to see how many people migrated. Edit: They also say that this is reflected on the status page. Here's how their page looks: https://i.imgur.com/xlO4Ik2.png Yup. It's literally a green status page that no one would give a second glance. That unreada…

Yeah, why is the deprecation message in green? Why not in red? Who is picking colours over there and with what criteria?

Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#245

This could have been easily mitigated with a giant red ugly banner "YOUR DATA WILL BE LOST IN X DAYS. MIGRATE NOW". Three emails clearly wasn't enough right? Now their name is in the dumps, customers are pissed and my only exposure to influxdb is a negative one. I hope other saas guys learn this very expensive lesson.

According to other comments, apparently there was a banner, but it was tiny and green instead. Pure genious.

Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another variant of this: if you can show that the code you are deleting never worked, there is no need to do a scream test. That is, if anyone cared about the code you are deleting, they would have already been screaming.

I would be careful with that. Maybe they did scream, but you haven't heard it, and they worked around the issue. Or maybe they did their workaround without saying anything. Or maybe you're wrong about your code not working . It actually may be working in some way that you don't know of, but is useful to someone. To use an ecosystem analogy, once you expose your software to the world beyond your own dev environment, e…

Re: Hyrum's law This is why user facing code should have (at least) two classes of tests: 1) is it doing what the developer intended it to do 2) is it doing the same thing it did on the last release version with typical user requests?

That sounds the same, but it is not.

The first class is a set of simpler "happy paths" of intended specific behaviors.

The second class is like wargaming. A good way to do this is to replay user requests against your API and see that they return the same results release to release. You may also uncover interesting unintended behavior / conversations to have with users this way.

Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#247

At AWS, the hierarchy of service priorities is crystal clear: Security, Durability, and Availability. In that order. Durability, the assurance that data will not be lost, is a cornerstone of trust, only surpassed by security. Availability, while important, can vary. Different customers have different needs. But security and durability? They're about trust. Lose that, and it's game over. In this regard, InfluxDB has u…

> At AWS, the hierarchy of service priorities is crystal clear: Security, Durability, and Availability. In that order. Durability, the assurance that data will not be lost, is a cornerstone of trust, only surpassed by security. Availability, while important, can vary. Different customers have different needs. But security and durability? They're about trust. Lose that, and it's game over. In this regard, InfluxDB has unfortunately dropped the ball.

Interestingly, this is also how I'd allocate tasks to new admins. Like, sure, I'd rather have my load balancers running, but they are stateless and redeploy in a minute. The amount of damage you can do there in less critical environments is entirely acceptable for teaching experiences. Databases or filestores though? Oh boy. I'd rather have someone shadow for a bit first because those are annoying to fix and will always cause unrecoverable loss, even with everything we do against it. Hourly incremental backups still lose up to 59 minutes of data if things go wrong.

> The InfluxDB incident brings to light the ongoing debate around soft vs. hard deletion. It's unacceptable for a hard delete to be the first step in any deprecation process. A clear escalation process is necessary: notify the customer, wait for explicit acknowledgement, disable their APIs for a short period, extend this period if necessary, soft delete for a certain period, notify again, and only then consider a hard delete.

Agreed. At work, I'm pushing that we have two processes: First, we need a process of deprecating a service and migrating customers to better services. This happens entirely at a product management and development level. Here you need to consider the value provided for the customer, how to provide it differently - better - and how to decide to fire customers if necessary. And afterwards, you need a good controlled process to migrate customers to the new services, ideally supported by customer support or consultants. No one likes change, so at least make their change an improvement and not entirely annoying.

And then, if a system or an environment is not needed anymore, leadership can trigger a second process to actually remove the service. I'm however maintaining that this is a second process which is entirely operational between support, operations and account management. It's their job to validate the system is load-free (I like the electricians term here), or that we're willing to accept dropping that load. And even then, if we just see a bunch of health checks on the systems by customers, you always do a scream test at that point and shut it down for a week, or cut DNS or such. And only then you drop it.

It's very, very careful, I'm aware. But it's happened 3-4 times already that a large customer suddenly was like "Oh no we forgot thingy X and now things are on fire and peeps internally are sharpening knifes for the meeting, do anything!" And you'd be surprised how much goodwill and trust you can get as a vendor by being able to bring back that thing in a few minutes. Even if you have to burn it then to turn up the heat to get them off of that service, since it'll be around forever otherwise.

Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#248
Well that sucks big time. Thankfully we switched from InfluxDB to QuestDB, and this news here just make me more convict that we made the right call.

We have a netflow analyzer with more than 350 b2b customers (regional ISPs) and we use to run InfluxDB as TSDB. A few things were bugging us though:

1) influxdb is being rewrited for the third time in less than 5 years;

2) v2 in hindsight was actually a downgrade from v1 in regards of performance (e.g: drop shard mechanism);

3) will they finally solve cardinality in v3? that was a major issue to be solved by v2...

I was just not confident sticking with influxDB. Thankfully another OSS project really surprised me in terms of performance and reliability, which is questdb.

Now we migrated more than 100 of our base and hopefully we will get all migrations done by the end of the year.

For my use case, there's one feature left to be add which is the inet type, in order to store IP addresses more efficiently.

Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(My memory is that we kept on influx including 1.7, but it was a while ago now so memory might be fuzzy) I guess influx perf and efficiency is really depending a lot on your data shape then :) Our experience was that performance dropped off a cliff if you had too much data, too much tagset cardinality, or else your query was too broad. And when it failed, it lost data. In fact, it lost data generally. When we were re…

I’ve been self-hosting InfluxDB in the hundreds of GB range for several years. I wouldn’t say I’m super happy with it, but… let’s say we’ve reached an understanding, the software and I. We’re on the latest patch of 1.8 and content to stay there. I agree with GP about storage efficiency, which is superb. Query performance is good as long as a single query doesn’t deal with more than ~dozens of series. And $deity help…

> And $deity help you if you want to do hourly roll-ups of all series for a short time range, as RAM usage is wildly unpredictable.

I think I went properly mad while trying to troubleshoot this. The same query sometimes pulls 5GB, sometimes 20GB, sometimes 50GB and sometimes OOMs at 200GB memory pulled beyond base load of the system. And there's no query planner, no execution log, no metrics to help you. And most documentation or threads about it can be summarized as "well sucks to be you, eh? Maybe less data would be an option I guess"

We don't do that anymore and just roll up a very small select number of metrics.

And yeah, we've committed to Postgres as our main DB 2 years ago or so, and currently time is clearing up to start work with TimescaleDB. Zabbix is supposed to be great with it.

Re: InfluxDB Cloud shuts down in Belgium; some weren't notified before data deletion

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(My memory is that we kept on influx including 1.7, but it was a while ago now so memory might be fuzzy) I guess influx perf and efficiency is really depending a lot on your data shape then :) Our experience was that performance dropped off a cliff if you had too much data, too much tagset cardinality, or else your query was too broad. And when it failed, it lost data. In fact, it lost data generally. When we were re…

I’ve been self-hosting InfluxDB in the hundreds of GB range for several years. I wouldn’t say I’m super happy with it, but… let’s say we’ve reached an understanding, the software and I. We’re on the latest patch of 1.8 and content to stay there. I agree with GP about storage efficiency, which is superb. Query performance is good as long as a single query doesn’t deal with more than ~dozens of series. And $deity help…

I have pretty much exactly the same experience.

However, I do feel that they are trying to really do the right thing with the new 3.0 architecture, addressing the deficiencies (most importantly performance and full-fledged SQL) while keeping the stuff that works (InfluxQL for simple and legacy queries). Also leveraging open-source projects and contributing to their upstream is a plus. Thus I’m hoping for them to succeed delivering on that promise.

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