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NixOS and my descent into insanity

ersei.net

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Re: NixOS and my descent into insanity

#41

Post by Joker_vD »

jm4 wrote: post #13

NixOS is awful except for everything else out there. The learning curve is... steep. The documentation sucks. You have to learn a new OS because a lot of your prior Linux knowledge no longer applies. But, man, it's so slick when you get it working. It's so easy to understand your system and how it's set up. There's no weird stuff changing between updates that you don't know about. You don't have to merge new configur…

I can now see why someone's quipped that the promise of NixOS is that "it will change everything but mutate nothing".

Re: NixOS and my descent into insanity

#42

Post by Joker_vD »

jamespwilliams wrote: post #31
jm4 wrote: post #13

NixOS is awful except for everything else out there. The learning curve is... steep. The documentation sucks. You have to learn a new OS because a lot of your prior Linux knowledge no longer applies. But, man, it's so slick when you get it working. It's so easy to understand your system and how it's set up. There's no weird stuff changing between updates that you don't know about. You don't have to merge new configur…

I agree that NixOS (and Nix) is difficult to learn and the documentation is generally poor, which I realise is what you’re getting at in your comment, But I do think we should keep in mind what an incredible project NixOS is. NixOS isn’t just some other Linux distro, repeating pretty much what every distro has done for 40 years. It’s a complete rethink of how a Linux distribution and package manager should work, from…

It would probably function way smoother if it didn't have to be built on top of Linux. But then nobody would use it, of course.

Re: NixOS and my descent into insanity

#43

Post by jm4 »

jamespwilliams wrote: post #31
jm4 wrote: post #13

NixOS is awful except for everything else out there. The learning curve is... steep. The documentation sucks. You have to learn a new OS because a lot of your prior Linux knowledge no longer applies. But, man, it's so slick when you get it working. It's so easy to understand your system and how it's set up. There's no weird stuff changing between updates that you don't know about. You don't have to merge new configur…

I agree that NixOS (and Nix) is difficult to learn and the documentation is generally poor, which I realise is what you’re getting at in your comment, But I do think we should keep in mind what an incredible project NixOS is. NixOS isn’t just some other Linux distro, repeating pretty much what every distro has done for 40 years. It’s a complete rethink of how a Linux distribution and package manager should work, from…

Oh, I agree. It's why I put up with NixOS. I love what I can accomplish with it. It's a tool for making your own distro. It basically makes the impossible possible. What I'd like to see now is to make the difficult things easy.

Re: NixOS and my descent into insanity

#44

Post by unshavedyak »

jm4 wrote: post #13

NixOS is awful except for everything else out there. The learning curve is... steep. The documentation sucks. You have to learn a new OS because a lot of your prior Linux knowledge no longer applies. But, man, it's so slick when you get it working. It's so easy to understand your system and how it's set up. There's no weird stuff changing between updates that you don't know about. You don't have to merge new configur…

I'm currently trying (and failing, lol) to switch to Nickel Nix. Nix OS/Pkgs is just amazing, but i'm near being entirely done with Nix Lang. Lazy + Dynamic is just a recipe for an awful developer experience.

As far as i can tell no one (thus far) has been able to explain a reasonable and concrete way to tell what any given variable is within a Nix source file. `nix repl` works decently for some cases, but many not - since it seems to mostly help you inspect the output of a Nix expression. So hypothetically it could work, but for any given variable you'd have to recreate the entire value/function/etc stack that produced that value in that state.

All around after ~16 months i think i'm finally done with Nix. It's Nickel or the highway for me. Not that i even love Nickel that much, but it's the bare bones of what Nix should have been in my view.

Not sure if it's a hot take or not.. but it feels like you can have Lazy or Dynamic, but never both. The DX is terrible with both.

Re: NixOS and my descent into insanity

#45

Post by mohsenari »

> Now to figure out what a "flake" is…

Flake is a worthwhile addition to Nix that is worth learning. But like anything Nixian, it's not straightforward.

Have you checked out any of the tools that aim to simplify Nix experience? We built Devbox (https://github.com/jetpack-io/devbox) with this in mind.

Re: NixOS and my descent into insanity

#46

Post by anon291 »

unshavedyak wrote: post #44
jm4 wrote: post #13

NixOS is awful except for everything else out there. The learning curve is... steep. The documentation sucks. You have to learn a new OS because a lot of your prior Linux knowledge no longer applies. But, man, it's so slick when you get it working. It's so easy to understand your system and how it's set up. There's no weird stuff changing between updates that you don't know about. You don't have to merge new configur…

I'm currently trying (and failing, lol) to switch to Nickel Nix. Nix OS/Pkgs is just amazing, but i'm near being entirely done with Nix Lang. Lazy + Dynamic is just a recipe for an awful developer experience. As far as i can tell no one (thus far) has been able to explain a reasonable and concrete way to tell what any given variable is within a Nix source file. `nix repl` works decently for some cases, but many not -…

What the nix language needs is support for first-class breakpoint instructions.

That is, I ought to be able to do something along the lines of

`let x = break (...)`

The semantics here is that, when x is evaluated (i.e., forced into WHNF), I get placed into a debugger where I can examine the context and either (1) choose to return a new value for `x` or (2) let it fall through and let `x` take on the value of `(...)`. The main issue with nix is debuggability

Re: NixOS and my descent into insanity

#48

Post by ochoseis »

unshavedyak wrote: post #44
jm4 wrote: post #13

NixOS is awful except for everything else out there. The learning curve is... steep. The documentation sucks. You have to learn a new OS because a lot of your prior Linux knowledge no longer applies. But, man, it's so slick when you get it working. It's so easy to understand your system and how it's set up. There's no weird stuff changing between updates that you don't know about. You don't have to merge new configur…

I'm currently trying (and failing, lol) to switch to Nickel Nix. Nix OS/Pkgs is just amazing, but i'm near being entirely done with Nix Lang. Lazy + Dynamic is just a recipe for an awful developer experience. As far as i can tell no one (thus far) has been able to explain a reasonable and concrete way to tell what any given variable is within a Nix source file. `nix repl` works decently for some cases, but many not -…

I tend to agree. I was trying to follow the guide on how to install NixOS with root-on-zfs[0]. I’ve followed it before with my own tweaks just fine, but recently it was updated to include some random guy’s modules that automate a couple steps. They’re mostly shallow abstractions on first-party NixOS modules, but following it was such a pain. I’ve been putting off reverse engineering the guy’s code so I can understand exactly what it’s doing. Apart from the code quality, it would probably be a lot easier to see what was going on in a typed language, with a debugger. Hopefully one day it gets there.

[0]: https://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/Getting%20Started/Nix...

Re: NixOS and my descent into insanity

#49

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

unshavedyak wrote: post #44
jm4 wrote: post #13

NixOS is awful except for everything else out there. The learning curve is... steep. The documentation sucks. You have to learn a new OS because a lot of your prior Linux knowledge no longer applies. But, man, it's so slick when you get it working. It's so easy to understand your system and how it's set up. There's no weird stuff changing between updates that you don't know about. You don't have to merge new configur…

I'm currently trying (and failing, lol) to switch to Nickel Nix. Nix OS/Pkgs is just amazing, but i'm near being entirely done with Nix Lang. Lazy + Dynamic is just a recipe for an awful developer experience. As far as i can tell no one (thus far) has been able to explain a reasonable and concrete way to tell what any given variable is within a Nix source file. `nix repl` works decently for some cases, but many not -…

For building packages, don't you kind of need it to be lazy? I don't want to compile and install all of nixpkgs.

Re: NixOS and my descent into insanity

#50

Post by klysm »

zellyn wrote: post #6

If I understand it right, https://getfleek.dev/ will turn a simpler yaml config into home-manager/nix/flake config. Might be a simpler way to get started. Haven't started down into the Nix abyss myself though…

YAML appears simpler but usually isn’t if you want to do anything hard
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