Live data from Hacker News

Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

theverge.com

481–490 of 599 posts

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs are built upon neural networks which are modelled upon how brains work can you explain to me specifically how they're different? can you explain to me how they're different to the degree that making an analogy between the two is "disingenuous to the extreme"?

> LLMs are built upon neural networks which are modelled upon how brains work You are confused. Neural networks are inspired by how brains work, but they do not actually simulate brains. Airplanes are also inspired by how birds work, but (presumably) you don't think that bird laws should apply to airplanes. > can you explain to me how they're different to the degree that making an analogy between the two is "disingen…

>Airplanes are also inspired by how birds work, but (presumably) you don't think that bird laws should apply to airplanes.

Not really. Only if if talking an ornithopter. Otherwise they're based off Bernolli's equations.

>You are confused. Neural networks are inspired by how brains work, but they do not actually simulate brains.

Non-sequitur. They never claimed it was simulating a human brain, merely that it was engaging in an analogus process of information encoding/decoding.

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so why haven't they already stopped if it is already trivial to download nearly any new piece of media?

Because it's not. It is trivial to buy a book on the Kindle store, and while it may be trivial to us here to go and pirate a azw3 and transfer it, it's not to most people People always forget the pareto principle when it comes to anti-piracy. No, they don't stop everyone, but a minor hurdle stops a hell of a lot of "ordinary" people

annas-archive.org, search and download, open it on your computer. functionally as trivial as purchasing a book on amazon. reading on a kindle is a niche case.

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second-order effects matter, though: If everyone is allowed to steal books, what's the incentive for experts to write new ones, and for the publishers to reward them for it? Btw, not a fan of "but what about the kids" rhetoric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

> If everyone is allowed to steal books Nothing was stolen- just copied.

[flagged]

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take a second to remember that copyright is the reason ~every child doesn't have access to ~every book ever written. While it might be too disruptive to eliminate copyright overnight, we should remember that our world will be much better and improve much faster to the extent we can reduce copyright's impact. And we should cheer it on when it happens. A majority of the world's population in 2023 has a smartphone…

Second-order effects matter, though: If everyone is allowed to steal books, what's the incentive for experts to write new ones, and for the publishers to reward them for it? Btw, not a fan of "but what about the kids" rhetoric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

But this is clearly not "everyone". This is just one/two readers. Not even copiers, as the network does not "remember" the content of the book, at least not better than a casual reader. Infringement in this case is more like standing in a book shop reading the book for free, or loaning one in a library for a day, not actually copying for keeps.

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#485
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

books hardly make money, so book sales is not the top incentive for most writers. i would be willing to bet that most books pay less than minimum wage, when considering the labor hours it takes to write the book and how much a writer is ultimately paid out. if not less than minimum wage, then certainly less than the expert's typical hourly rate.

I think that would wholly destroy the ability of writers to actually make a living writing novels. The fact that the living isn't great now does not justify this.

People wrote great works before copywrite.

People write for reasons other than money from the sales of the book. This accounts for most authors, who aren't famous enough to negotiate a great deal with a publisher.

And we don't need to abolish copyright outright. Just require that it is continually published at a steady or decreasing price, or it becomes public domain. And put works in the public domain a little sooner.

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#486
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they are in possession of copyrighted material because someone without the proper rights gave it to them illegally, then the possession itself is also illegal. No, they aren’t. > It's illegal to own knowingly stolen property in all 50 US states While copyright violation is often metaphorically (or hyperbolicly) referred to as stealing, copyright violation isn't theft and a copy created in violation of copyright…

> No, they aren’t. Very convincing argument. Also, that's maybe the one part of this discussion that can't be debated. Possession of illegally obtained property, intellectual or otherwise, is illegal. Always has been, always will be. It's bizarre for you to be claiming otherwise. > While copyright violation is often metaphorically (or hyperbolicly) referred to as stealing [...] You are making a pedantic argument abou…

> Also, that's maybe the one part of this discussion that can't be debated.

You are correct; it is absolutely, undebatably not illegal, in and of itself, to own a copy made in violation of a copyrightholder’s rights under US law.

If you think it is, here’s what you need to do: cite the law. In American law, everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted, so if mere possession of material made in violation of copyright is, as you claim, illegal, you will be able to find a provision of law that actually says that. (You won't, because its not.)

Now, there are important legal issues that effect possessors of illegally made copies—if its something like computer software where copying is part of normal use and implicitly or explicitly licebmnsed for lawful copies, you can’t make that kind of use of your illegal copy without violating the copyright holder’s exclusive right to make copies because you have no license for that copying. And you don’t have first sale rights in your illegal copy even if you own the physical medium in which it is embodied. And so on and so on.

But possession itself is not illegal.

> The courts have clarified that violating intellectual property is still a denial of owed compensation (theft),

That's not what theft is.

> but instead prefer the term "infringe" to make clear the distinction between violating physical rights (criminal) and violating intellectual rights (civil).

This is nonsense, and absolutely not something courts have “clarified” (or something anyone with even a passing familiarity with the relevant law could say with a straight face) since IP (including copyright) violations can be criminal as well as civil (see 17 USC § 506) and physical (real and personal) property rights violations, like IP, have sets of civil violations that generally are of broader coverage than the more narrow crimes (e.g., the torts of trespass, trespass to chattels, and conversion).

> It's still a violation of copyright to be in possession of works obtained via illegal reproduction.

No, its not: Title 17 lists the exclusove rights associated with copyright, enumerates violations, and provides remedies, and possession of copies is not an exclusive right in copyright, possession of unlicensed copies is not a violation (though it may be important evidence related to actual violations), and, consequently, there is no legal remedy for such possession.

> You have zero fair use protections for illegally reproduced content.

That's a whole different issue.

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#487

> The complaint lays out in steps why the plaintiffs believe the datasets have illicit origins — in a Meta paper detailing LLaMA, the company points to sources for its training datasets, one of which is called ThePile, which was assembled by a company called EleutherAI. ThePile, the complaint points out, was described in an EleutherAI paper as being put together from “a copy of the contents of the Bibliotik private t…

Let's take a second to remember that copyright is the reason ~every child doesn't have access to ~every book ever written. While it might be too disruptive to eliminate copyright overnight, we should remember that our world will be much better and improve much faster to the extent we can reduce copyright's impact. And we should cheer it on when it happens. A majority of the world's population in 2023 has a smartphone…

[dead]

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#488

> The complaint lays out in steps why the plaintiffs believe the datasets have illicit origins — in a Meta paper detailing LLaMA, the company points to sources for its training datasets, one of which is called ThePile, which was assembled by a company called EleutherAI. ThePile, the complaint points out, was described in an EleutherAI paper as being put together from “a copy of the contents of the Bibliotik private t…

Let's take a second to remember that copyright is the reason ~every child doesn't have access to ~every book ever written. While it might be too disruptive to eliminate copyright overnight, we should remember that our world will be much better and improve much faster to the extent we can reduce copyright's impact. And we should cheer it on when it happens. A majority of the world's population in 2023 has a smartphone…

[deleted]

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#489
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that would wholly destroy the ability of writers to actually make a living writing novels. The fact that the living isn't great now does not justify this.

People wrote great works before copywrite. People write for reasons other than money from the sales of the book. This accounts for most authors, who aren't famous enough to negotiate a great deal with a publisher. And we don't need to abolish copyright outright. Just require that it is continually published at a steady or decreasing price, or it becomes public domain. And put works in the public domain a little soone…

People did write before copyright. Copyright was established to make it more likely.

Yes, people write for other reasons (e.g., self-promotion). But that does not account for "most authors" I would actually want to read.

I'm not against copyright being different, especially for things that are written as work-for-hire. But that's a fight with Disney. Good luck.

Re: Sarah Silverman is suing OpenAI and Meta for copyright infringement

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take a second to remember that copyright is the reason ~every child doesn't have access to ~every book ever written. While it might be too disruptive to eliminate copyright overnight, we should remember that our world will be much better and improve much faster to the extent we can reduce copyright's impact. And we should cheer it on when it happens. A majority of the world's population in 2023 has a smartphone…

Second-order effects matter, though: If everyone is allowed to steal books, what's the incentive for experts to write new ones, and for the publishers to reward them for it? Btw, not a fan of "but what about the kids" rhetoric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

The average full time author in the UK earn below minimum wage, and most authors are not full time.

While removing copyright without some form of mechanism to replace it would be problematic, and I do agree there are second order effects to consider, at least for books the effect may well be less than you'd think.

Post reply on HN