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Wayland on OpenBSD

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Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#171

Post by mort96 »

Monsterovich wrote: post #160
mort96 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, X is terrible. It's janky as hell, screen tearing is everywhere unless you're running extremely particular driver + hardware + X configurations, the screen locker doesn't even engage if you have a context menu open, vital things like compositing are hacked on in janky ways. For some people, Wayland isn't there yet. For a whole lot of other people, Wayland is already better than X. Are distro developer…

> It's janky as hell, screen tearing is everywhere unless you're running extremely particular driver + hardware + X configurations There you go again with your mythical screen tearing that I've never seen. You should learn to enable V-Sync in your compositor or in xorg.conf (the option is called Tearfree in Mesa). > the screen locker doesn't even engage if you have a context menu open For some reason, it worked for m…

You don't strike me as a very serious participant in this conversation. "Wayland is not improving"? Spare me. If you have anything serious to say on that topic, you'll have to describe what differentiates a well-engineered solution and a crutch in your mind, and then explain why things like the proposed color management protocol or whatever else falls in the "crutch" category.

I'm happy for you that you get a tear-free X11 desktop. A quick Google search should make it obvious that I'm not the only person who experiences tearing with X though.

I don't know the details of your system, but the screen locker issue seems to definitely affect xfce4-screensaver; this issue is still open: https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-screensaver/-/issues/75. And just for fun, here's the same bug for Ubuntu (just for a different screen locker): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-screensaver/..., still open. Maybe try to follow the reproduction steps listed in those two issues and see if you're affected or if your system is magically immune. Maybe inform those projects that the issue is fixed?

Finally:

> The only thing that works in all use-cases is Xorg.

Xorg doesn't work for my use case. I have multiple monitors of different refresh rates and different DPI settings and I demand a tear-free desktop, Wayland is the only option which works for that use case.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#172

Post by account42 »

badsectoracula wrote: post #133
mort96 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good news, color calibration is being worked on! ( https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/m... ) Wayland doesn't have all the features we'd like it to have yet, it's missing some big things like global hotkeys and color management. It's not moving as fast as I'd like, but all those things are being actively worked on. X11 also doesn't have all the features we'd like it to have, such as the ability…

> X11 also doesn't have all the features we'd like it to have, such as the ability to render frames without tearing What exactly do you mean? My Xorg setup can render frames without tearing just fine, both in video playback (VLC) and in games. TBH i don't really care about tearing (since it tends to come with input lag even on desktop usage) aside from videos, so i haven't looked much into it. However people are work…

TearFree has been working with the amdgpu DDX for ages btw. Zero tearing and with FreeSync the latency hit is negligible.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#173

Post by shmerl »

badsectoracula wrote: post #130
shmerl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Xorg and Wayland compositors use the same underlying APIs Not really. KWin has Wayland specific paths that simply don't work on X and developers are increasingly simply not bothering to go out of their way with X if something isn't possible to implement over it. So X use case is going to further deteriorate, that's inevitable.

> Not really. KWin has Wayland specific paths that simply don't work on X What exactly do you refer to? Note that i meant the kernel APIs to drive the hardware as what i replied to was Xorg not keeping up with newer hardware, not toolkits.

I mean stuff like bugs with boot screen leaking data not being fixed with X and so on.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#174

Post by account42 »

kaba0 wrote: post #75
orbital-decay wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Wayland just existed on its own, nobody would have had a problem. The people pushing Wayland are not just its authors, but the distro devs, and the entire fuss is about Wayland being declared as the "future" by certain distro developers recently. This future has an issue - it only supports an opinionated subset of maybe 3/4 use cases of the "past". However broken the past was, replacing it with something that is s…

No one “pushes” wayland, it is just infeasible to make people work on a legacy and fundamentally broken codebase in their spare time. Feel free to set up a fund and sponsor X11 maintenance - there is surely a price where people will start working on it.

> in their spare time

Most Linux graphics development is not unpaid.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#175

Post by [deleted] »

shmerl wrote: post #9
kelnos wrote: post #2

I know this is just a "hack it together" effort, but I wonder if it even makes sense to emulate/support libevdev and libinput on non-Linux OSes. While the Wayland protocol does reuse some libinput names/enums/etc., I don't believe there's anything in it that requires those particular implementations or APIs (that is, wl_pointer and wl_keyboard doesn't have to be populated by libinput). Maybe wlroots should have OpenB…

I think standardizing on libinput is a big deal, even if it's not required for Wayland use case. Otherwise it would have become a constant reinvention of the wheel. Same goes for other similar use cases that aren't tied to Wayland protocols, but are critical for Wayland compositors to function and before used to be handled by Xorg in some unified fashion.

[deleted]

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#176

Post by 59nadir »

shrubble wrote: post #11

I as a user haven't seen any reason to care about Wayland. And losing/dropping X11's network transparency seems rather surprising in a heavily networked world...

I keep seeing friends who run Wayland have embarrassing issues with global hotkeys, screen sharing, etc., and I'm running X11 with a default config and standard drivers without literally any issue. I too don't see the point in switching when I'd be switching from a fully functional system that has basically no issues (and yeah, I don't get where multi-DPI setup issues come from; I have multiple screens with different resolutions and no issues, one of them is at 2560x1440 and the others are just 1080p standard) to a system that by most accounts seem to have at the very least 2-3 issues that impact basic workday things.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#177

Post by SAI_Peregrinus »

vetinari wrote: post #123
j16sdiz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11R6.4 had it with Xinerama extension, back in 1998.

Xinerama came with the price of not supporting mixed DPI. It was logically a single screen, just with irregular shape, so all screens had to be same DPI (and bit-depth, but that's not an issue nowadays).

Bit-depth is certainly an issue these days. I've got a 1920x1080 60Hz 8-bit/color 24" monitor and a 3840x2160 144Hz 10-bit/color 27" monitor. Different resolutions, refresh rates, color depths, sizes, and DPIs, on a very modern system.

X doesn't like this. Wayland works much better.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#178

Post by shrubble »

bitwize wrote: post #45
badsectoracula wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't tried it (because i do not really need network transparency and i'm using Xorg anyway) but supposedly this project[0] implements the Wayland protocol on top of Xorg in a way that integrates mostly seamlessly with X11-based desktops (instead of creating a window and running Wayland inside it as if it was a monitor isolated from the rest of the desktop). It might be useful to be able to run Wayland applicatio…

Waypipe can run Wayland applications remotely in a more modern fashion that doesn't suck ass on all but the fastest network links. But this will be a useful stopgap for those who stubbornly cling to X11 (or are forced to, e.g. by NVIDIA hardware) as more and more useful software drops X support and goes Wayland-only.

Stubborn X11-clingers ... A phrase for the ages.

I imagine a man surrounded by the X11 books (which is how O'Reilly got it's start) strewn around a messy desk, 2 large monitors and a small desktop system beside them. On the floor, a Sun Enterprise E450 in its deskside enclosure.

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#179

Post by babypuncher »

bandrami wrote: post #97
kaba0 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Screenshots and sharing the screen Works for years. And global hotkeys are not trivial - no, that “everything listens to everything” that X did is not a proper solution.

It's worked fine for X for decades now, so simply claiming "it's not a solution" is kind of silly. I get that people pretend they are afraid some nefarious program is going to scrape their screen, but since I don't use closed source software this just isn't a real worry. Also do keep in mind this is about more than global hotkeys; there are several accessibility paradigms that simply don't and can't work on Wayland.

> I get that people pretend they are afraid some nefarious program is going to scrape their screen, but since I don't use closed source software this just isn't a real worry.

Do you personally audit the source code to every piece of software you run on your computer? Do you have the expertise necessary to even do that if you wanted to?

FOSS isn't magically immune to security exploits. Everything we build should assume any other software it interfaces with might be defective or even hostile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartbleed

Re: Wayland on OpenBSD

#180

Post by mst »

mnd999 wrote: post #113
mst wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love X11 dearly but I'm still happy using a single non-HiDPI screen because my normal working environment is basically 2x2 tiled 80x24 xterms (with multiple sets of them on different virtual screens) so the limitations just don't really affect me. Wayland has clearly chosen a set of trade-offs that are far superior for a lot of users and I fully expect anybody sticking with X11 to gradually become more and more of…

Of course use whatever works for you, but it sounds like sway would do what you want in a fairly painless way with wayland.

Thing is, my fvwm config might be short but my setup is (arguably rather more than) a bit esoteric (feel free to declare tl;dr but I may as well get an explanation of my requirements down so I can stuff it in a file somewhere for future reference):

https://trout.me.uk/X11/fvwm2rc https://trout.me.uk/screenshot4.png

That gives me a 3x3 X11 screen of my actual screen size with the laptop screen acting as a scrolling viewport, keyboard shortcuts to jump one screen or one xterm's worth of screen at once (the xterms are launched pre-tiled by a script, I like that layout but I don't get on with tiling window managers) and rely heavily on focus follows mouse to be able to e.g. type into a window that's mostly covered by another one that I'm reading stuff from as I type.

Plus I'm currently running VcXsrv in full screen mode on a Windows 10 install connecting to WSL2 over local TCP, though so long as I can get "Alt-Tab to a full screen session with no windows title bar/etc. taking up space" -somehow- I'm not really tied to the X11 protocol, I'm looking at switching over to RDP anyway (and would accept VNC, I already use that for remoting to Debian and FreeBSD system out on t'internet but the full screen experience tends to be a tad inelegant at least with the client configs I've tried to date).

Now, if those both sound like they's at least -doable- with anything up to, say, a moderate amount of pain with Windows 10 acting as a client to all of WSL2 Debian, a 'real' debian install, and FreeBSD, I'm happy to endure lots of RTFM and some faffing to get there, but last time I tried I ended up at "either this isn't really possible yet or I've completely failed to find the correct FMs to R to figure it out."

If anybody has a minute, a reply to the effect of "yeah, not yet" or "here's what you should've read to realise it is actually possible and not -too- painful so long as you read all of these links carefully" would be appreciated and I'll go do the reading and try and find time to try it out (probably with the FreeBSD system as the thing running the RDP/VNC/whatever server first since I want to move my main firefox instance there) ... but I'm very much aware that my preferences and workflow are kinda weird and there are almost certainly higher ROI things for the relevant contributors to be spending their time on so I'm pretty comfortable with "Wayland should probably be the present or at least near future for most people but I may be staying on X11 for a while yet" as a situation :)

(yes, I know, but it all works for me)

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