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Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

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Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#51

Just a reminder that lazy managers are the source of burnout for those who are under them. As a manager I can say, there is no easier job than just forwarding requests from directors directly to developers, not planning, and promising crazy deadlines to avoid conflict with higher management. If someone is being paid more, this person has to work more, I have seen so many people becoming managers just to actually avoi…

> If someone is being paid more, this person has to work more

Given the number of new grads out of college working 60+ hr weeks, I am not sure there is much leeway left for managers to 'work more'.

With a manager's job, time invested and outcome is even less correlated than a code-monkey (no offense, I am one too) who at least has a slightly-less-than-linear relationship with work/time.

Find yourself a good manager. Don't think too much about how long the manager (or any other coworker) chooses to work. A good manager will find a way to accommodate different lifestyles without disrupting the unity or drive of the individual members of the team.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#52

I thought this article might have been on bullshit jobs in the tech industry but it's not. Are their bullshit jobs in the tech industry?

Adtech

I might be completely wrong here as I've never worked in adtech, but the field seems like a really weird mix of bullshit jobs (the kind David Graeber wrote about), snakeoil, adtech that actually works as advertised, but still feels bad to work on because it's mostly harmful to society, and adtech that's actually legit and ethically neutral.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#53

https://archive.is/3MbI7 (the site blocks ad-blockers, so ad-blocker users might find this URL helpful)

I have been getting this error from archive.is for two days now, I am unsure if this is on my end or what: > An error occurred during a connection to archive.is. Cannot communicate securely with peer: no common encryption algorithm(s). > Error code: SSL_ERROR_NO_CYPHER_OVERLAP

I get it too, in Firefox 114 on Linux.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#54
This is sloppy and lazy in its generalizations from Google and Amazon to "tech companies" in general. They should really say something like "monopolistic tech behemoths that are in the top 10 of the S&P 500".

I've worked in tech before, during, and after the hiring boom; but not for any of these companies. I have seen very little of the sort of make-work that is described in the article. Sure, there is no guarantee that research efforts will be utilized, but making that the goal from the start for political reasons is so terrible that it's likely that only FAANG bureaucracy is bloated enough to sustain it.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#55
post #28

Odds are silly high that this will be a ton of talking past each other in experiences. Good management is almost certainly situation specific. Such that for a good manager, you also need a good organization. And for that organization, you likely need a certain kind of worker. Tech work is an odd one as we can't decide if we are general contractors, artists, or line workers. Each will have different quirks on how they…

> for a good manager, you also need a good organization False. Being a good manager is aligned with being a good leader, which is 100% down to the person who is the manager. Sure you may not have an "effective team" without a good organization, but as a manager your job is to make the team succeed, and if you're following the laws of leadership, it has nothing to do with your organization.

Ah, that was a poor word choice on mine. I meant "for a good manager, you need an appropriate organization."

That said, I somewhat reject the idea of "laws of leadership." Too situational and way too much "had the best people working for them" involved in so many of the success stories out there.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#56
Middle management (above first line manager) in large organizations is hard to do well. I think it is difficult to understand if you have never done it, and it is even difficult to articulate why. I find it much much harder than working as an engineer or Eng Mgr.

Fundamentally, I think it is an incentive and systematic issue: what is expected of middle managers, and incentivized, requires almost complete dedication to managing up and laterally. People who spend time w/ their reports are the exceptions because there is close to 0 correlation with getting promoted. Caring about your report either require crazy number of hours, or ignoring what people above you will expect. The latter will ultimately affect their report.

Many people in that line of work do the minimum ? Yes, I can believe this. But the odds are stacked against you. I used to joke "as a middle manager, doing above average work requires extraordinary dedication".

1. Lack of agency: once you are above first line management (EM), you actually have much less agency. As an EM, you can tweak processes, and improve things. You only are accountable to your manager, and maybe 2-3 other people. Once you are above that, the number of stakeholders explodes, and any perception of failure will get at you. You can't say no to many useless meetings because you have to be there. If you don't go, and something goes wrong, guess whose teams/projects will be slashed next time.

2. Corollary: spooky action at a distance. Once you're middle manager, you will get random people with random level of competence ask you things you don't even understand. I regularly encountered "You have not done X yet, and this is slowing down other teams", and that was the first time I heard of X. Everybody knows you can't do half of what you are asked, but you better not be perceived as not doing all of it.

3. Solitude: As an EM, you can foster your team. Above, you just have a bunch of individuals who very much don't work as a team. Very difficult to keep some cohesion.

4. You need to own shit you are not responsible for: You have to explain often nonsensical decisions you had no authority on, but you also cannot say "sorry guys, this is coming from above".

5. Outside of exceptions, doing a good job is completely unrelated to how you will be evaluated. There are many things you know in your heart will negatively impact your team that you absolutely have to do. The best middle managers are the ones who manage to balance the kafkaiesque and still maintain good environment in their report line. This requires an enormous amount of time that you can only do for so long, most burn out quickly.

It is slightly over cynical, but I think avoiding what spakhm describers on his blog is impossible to escape above a certain size: https://www.spakhm.com/p/how-to-get-promoted

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#57

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

Part of why I left Google was poor leadership at the VP level. The org wasn't set up for success and - as far as I could tell - the vision was myopic and incoherent. VP performance was more or less opaque to me for most of my career there, but eventually I got senior and experienced enough to have a real opinion.

Really liked my direct manager, but we were in it together, and there was nothing he could have done about it.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#58
post #21

Having spent a few decades in Enteprise digitalisation, both in the public and in the private sector I think this issue is sort of unsolvable. I’m not convinced it’s fully down to managers, but this is obviously the anecdotal and non-tech organisation point of view, because they manage people. What I mean by this is that I’ve had excellent managers who didn’t know half their staff wasn’t doing anything remotely usefu…

That's still a problem with management. The entire system is designed to incentivize this behavior. If your people's individual compensation is tied to their personal billable hours, your people will maximize for personable billable hours.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#59

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

Seconded and thirded. Nothing is more soul draining then doing nothing for 8 hours a day, the idea that devs are lazy and don't want to code is like the antithesis of our whole profession. Most of us do it in our free time. When you actually have a real actionable thing to work on that gives the line workers meaningful "wins" the management pyramid flips and they all become "servant managers" trying to direct the excitement of the team to the most valuable stuff.

Laziness is the natural response to the work you're doing not mattering. If you find yourself imposing artificial deadlines as motivation then maybe what you're doing isn't all that important.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#60
IMHO the real culprit is the monopolistic nature of the tech industry. Roughly, the companies are all mono/duopolies or trying to get there. It's all Golden Gooses and everyone is doing anything and everything they can to get/keep theirs.

For companies like FAANGs it's no problem to waste 95 out of every 100 million they spend because that one team that hits on something might increase the market cap by half a billion. The scale is lower for smaller companies but the math is essentially the same.

And once you accept waste as an acceptable cost of doing business it explodes. Because it's very hard to tell the difference between a reasonable idea that didn't work and one that never had any shot or was poorly executed.

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