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Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

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Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#11

Post by jkingsbery »

Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. Not sure if 100% accurate, but a quick google search shows WVU tuition is about $9k for in-state, $25k out of state... does it really make sense for someone to spend $100k (or $36k, for West Virginia residents) to learn puppetry? If that's your thing, great, why not go apprentice yourself somewhere to learn that skill instead?

Or offer a class or two in puppetry, that someone as a theater major can take. Not everything that isn't STEM is "liberal arts" - as this article says, puppetry by itself is pretty niche, and the point of liberal arts is to be more broad.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#12

Post by nvahalik »

jkingsbery wrote: post #11

Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. Not sure if 100% accurate, but a quick google search shows WVU tuition is about $9k for in-state, $25k out of state... does it really make sense for someone to spend $100k (or $36k, for West Virginia residents) to learn puppetry? If that's your thing, great, why not go apprentice yourself somewhere to learn that skill instead? Or offer a class or two in puppe…

> why not go apprentice yourself somewhere

There has been a big push in the last 20 years or so to make sure that everyone makes a "living wage". This, in turn, makes it nearly impossible for people who want to learn a trade while making something (anything) from actually doing so. Their work and time is basically worthless. They can't be paid accordingly, so they just don't...

Unless you want to volunteer, but most organizations don't value volunteer time because it isn't "real work".

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#13

Post by dsr_ »

jkingsbery wrote: post #11

Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. Not sure if 100% accurate, but a quick google search shows WVU tuition is about $9k for in-state, $25k out of state... does it really make sense for someone to spend $100k (or $36k, for West Virginia residents) to learn puppetry? If that's your thing, great, why not go apprentice yourself somewhere to learn that skill instead? Or offer a class or two in puppe…

Your argument is not "this is a thing which should not be taught" but rather "the economic model of teaching this is bad".

And I agree. But I would also say that the economic model for teaching everything is terrible. So, improving that model will make everything better.

Attempting to special-case a field does not improve things.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#14

Post by ghaff »

nvahalik wrote: post #12
jkingsbery wrote: post #11

Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. Not sure if 100% accurate, but a quick google search shows WVU tuition is about $9k for in-state, $25k out of state... does it really make sense for someone to spend $100k (or $36k, for West Virginia residents) to learn puppetry? If that's your thing, great, why not go apprentice yourself somewhere to learn that skill instead? Or offer a class or two in puppe…

> why not go apprentice yourself somewhere There has been a big push in the last 20 years or so to make sure that everyone makes a "living wage". This, in turn, makes it nearly impossible for people who want to learn a trade while making something (anything) from actually doing so. Their work and time is basically worthless. They can't be paid accordingly, so they just don't... Unless you want to volunteer, but most…

Many people object to unpaid or minimally paid internships but that's pretty much the only option for many types of apprenticeships where the apprentice is learning but isn't really doing anything very useful.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#15

Post by lotsofpulp »

ghaff wrote: post #14
nvahalik wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why not go apprentice yourself somewhere There has been a big push in the last 20 years or so to make sure that everyone makes a "living wage". This, in turn, makes it nearly impossible for people who want to learn a trade while making something (anything) from actually doing so. Their work and time is basically worthless. They can't be paid accordingly, so they just don't... Unless you want to volunteer, but most…

Many people object to unpaid or minimally paid internships but that's pretty much the only option for many types of apprenticeships where the apprentice is learning but isn't really doing anything very useful.

Either that type of work will die out, or the demand for it will cause the price for the work to increase allowing pay for the apprentices.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#16

Post by ghaff »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #15
ghaff wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people object to unpaid or minimally paid internships but that's pretty much the only option for many types of apprenticeships where the apprentice is learning but isn't really doing anything very useful.

Either that type of work will die out, or the demand for it will cause the price for the work to increase allowing pay for the apprentices.

Or things just continue as they have for decades.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#17

Post by NickC25 »

jkingsbery wrote: post #11

Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. Not sure if 100% accurate, but a quick google search shows WVU tuition is about $9k for in-state, $25k out of state... does it really make sense for someone to spend $100k (or $36k, for West Virginia residents) to learn puppetry? If that's your thing, great, why not go apprentice yourself somewhere to learn that skill instead? Or offer a class or two in puppe…

>Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college.

This honestly is the crux of the issue with higher education. In fact, most things we learn outside of STEM in academia can be learned elsewhere - literature, languages, arts, etc.

I'm 100% for the humanities, and majored in them myself. But they shouldn't cost a fortune to study, nor should they really be in a narrow results-focused academic environment. Now, are they worth learning? Of course they are, and I think they make us better human beings. But spending dumb money to learn something niche that can be learned and practiced on one's own time is probably not a great use of time nor money.

I studied multiple languages, and while they are incredibly useful and absolutely worth learning, academia is not the place to do it. While I did do the Middlebury intensive program (which is hard, and the results were great), I improved the most when I actually went and lived in a country that spoke the language I wanted to improve at. Some of the best speakers of a foreign language that I know got so good by having a girlfriend who was native to the language that they wanted to learn. No formal education needed.

If I wanted to learn puppetry, I'd use YouTube to learn the basics, and then perhaps even document my progress through making videos of my own. I'd probably make a few bucks on it too. People do the same thing for learning animation, acting, music production, video production, etc.. why can't puppetry be the same?

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#18

Post by idiotsecant »

nvahalik wrote: post #12
jkingsbery wrote: post #11

Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. Not sure if 100% accurate, but a quick google search shows WVU tuition is about $9k for in-state, $25k out of state... does it really make sense for someone to spend $100k (or $36k, for West Virginia residents) to learn puppetry? If that's your thing, great, why not go apprentice yourself somewhere to learn that skill instead? Or offer a class or two in puppe…

> why not go apprentice yourself somewhere There has been a big push in the last 20 years or so to make sure that everyone makes a "living wage". This, in turn, makes it nearly impossible for people who want to learn a trade while making something (anything) from actually doing so. Their work and time is basically worthless. They can't be paid accordingly, so they just don't... Unless you want to volunteer, but most…

Skilled trades apprenticeships in states with a sane labor culture are well paid and sought after positions.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#19

Post by lumost »

jkingsbery wrote: post #11

Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. Not sure if 100% accurate, but a quick google search shows WVU tuition is about $9k for in-state, $25k out of state... does it really make sense for someone to spend $100k (or $36k, for West Virginia residents) to learn puppetry? If that's your thing, great, why not go apprentice yourself somewhere to learn that skill instead? Or offer a class or two in puppe…

The advantage and disadvantage of an apprentice system is that practitioners cannot massively scale up their pupil count (at least normally).

This implicitly aligns incentives to a static arrangement where apprentices are training to replace their masters. It is immediately obvious to everyone which fields either can’t afford to pay their apprentices - or which fields have exceptionally long times until the apprentice can work independently. Practitioners are also strongly incentivized to only accept strong pupils who they expect to work with for many years.

The con of this model is that a great master can only teach a small number of apprentices - a great master may also be a terrible teacher.

Undoubtedly, there are some industries that should follow the apprenticeship model - however these industries also massively benefit from a university system which transfers the cost of training to the student/government. There likely should be some alignment between university costs and educational outcomes on a per major basis.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#20

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

NickC25 wrote: post #17
jkingsbery wrote: post #11

Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. Not sure if 100% accurate, but a quick google search shows WVU tuition is about $9k for in-state, $25k out of state... does it really make sense for someone to spend $100k (or $36k, for West Virginia residents) to learn puppetry? If that's your thing, great, why not go apprentice yourself somewhere to learn that skill instead? Or offer a class or two in puppe…

>Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. This honestly is the crux of the issue with higher education. In fact, most things we learn outside of STEM in academia can be learned elsewhere - literature, languages, arts, etc. I'm 100% for the humanities, and majored in them myself. But they shouldn't cost a fortune to study, nor should they really be in a narrow results-focused academic environment. No…

> In fact, most things we learn outside of STEM in academia can be learned elsewhere - literature, languages, arts, etc.

Why specify STEM as being an exception to that rule? Are people unable to learn programming or math outside of academia? It's a shame the arts aren't seen as valid jobs and so are unworthy of investment.

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