California needs real math education, not gimmicks • Hacker News Board

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#341

Post by Loocid » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 12:23 AM UTC

t8sr wrote: post #219

ern wrote: post #206

U.S. high school math scores lag significantly behind other countries, even though scores in reading and science are above average How much of this math gap is because other countries focus heavily on test prep and exam performance?

Optimizing for test scores is an American phenomenon. AFAIK schools in most of the rest of the developed world are not worrying about these metrics. (They do worry about how many pupils go on to graduate college, for example.) (Although of course nobody on here likely knows anything about more than a handful of countries’ systems at most.)

>Optimizing for test scores is an American phenomenon.

Completely false. Look at the culture around standardised testing in places like Japan and South Korea. I'm Australian and optimizing for test scores is absolutely a thing here too, though I admit probably less so than the US.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#342

Post by aleph_minus_one » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 1:14 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #94

ordersofmag wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you offer any evidence or reasoning as to why I should believe this? It would seem to assert that somehow student success/failure currently sits entirely in the hands of teachers: they know what is needed and could do it if only they were marginally more motivated. I'm not a teacher myself but have been involved in the system my entire life and this doesn't ring true at all. Even if it were possible it would almo…

It works everywhere in the private sector. Having a base salary plus incentive pay for meeting objective goals is commonplace. Companies wouldn't do that if it didn't work. In my own company, Zortech, the staff was paid a base rate plus a cut of the gross sales for the month. > it would almost certainly result in teachers focusing all of their efforts on the best students and none of it on those who are struggling Ac…

> Having a base salary plus incentive pay for meeting objective goals is commonplace. Companies wouldn't do that if it didn't work.

Management methods are full of cargo cult "science".

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#343

Post by aleph_minus_one » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 1:24 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #322

ryandrake wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have baked into your plan an incorrect assumption: You are massively overestimating the effect a teacher's input has on student output. Of all the things that lead to student education performance, the quality/performance of the teacher is very low on the list. Teachers are not factory workers, where if they are more skilled, or faster, or better trained, they'll produce more widgets faster. Most teachers…

> You are massively overestimating the effect a teacher's input has on student output Who needs teachers, then, if they are so ineffectual? Might as well replace them with a canned video course. BTW, every school knows who the good teachers are and who the useless ones are. They get paid exactly the same. Do you think that's a good system? > There are teachers who are better than other teachers, but it's not generall…

> Who needs teachers, then, if they are so ineffectual? Might as well replace them with a canned video course.

Replacing teachers by canned video courses does not a priori sound like a bad idea.

The central reason why this is not done is that school also serves as daycare, so you need some employees to supervise the children, i.e. removing the teachers will hardly decrease the employee count. All together, if we consider the additinal cost of creating the video courses, this measure would hardly decrease the cost of schooling. So politicians think "never change a running system" and "avoid the trouble with the teacher's unions" and leave everything as it is.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#344

Post by defrost » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 2:21 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #319

bandrami wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Capitalism is a heluva lot older than 1549. Huh? No, it's not. The first step may be learning what "capitalism" means. It's a specific economic system that developed in early modernity. It's not some "natural state of man" any more than feudalism was before it.

I provided a cite. Maybe have a look at it.

The opinions of Rodney Stark are neither unkown, uncontested, nor definitive.

At best they are niche and contraversial (admittedly it's the phrase "revolutionary and controversial" that most commonly appears on his book reviews).

I spoke of modern capitalism which is a well understood term, as acknowledged by bandrami.

If you wish to speculate on undocumented pre history then it's reasonable to assume that work from home predates first documentation and goes back as far in time as large works with small parts existed.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#345

Post by strix_varius » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 2:47 AM UTC

t8sr wrote: post #310

strix_varius wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is blatantly wrong. https://www.npr.org/2010/12/29/132416889/chinese-top-in-test...

I mean, I did say developed world, but the link you're giving me is about China. I guess it's up to debate whether you consider that a developed country, but the IMF for example doesn't. Being more concrete, test in Europe scores are generally not a factor in university admissions* or school funding. I love being told I'm blatantly wrong about the world by confident Americans on the internet but, like, I did go throu…

I've gone to school in the US, Germany, and Australia. Tests were a major factor in all three places.

But if you'd like to restrict candidates to the IMF's "developed" list, then other countries with well-documented testing cultures include Japan, South Korea, and the UK.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#346

Post by leetcrew » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 3:04 AM UTC

bandrami wrote: post #227

WalterBright wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public teacher unions are adamantly against subjective reviews, which is why I suggested an objective mechanism. > in the vague opinion of your management tree I know it's popular to believe that management has no idea who the real performers are. But every office I've worked in, everyone knew who the good performers were and who the deadwood was. Including the managers. It's also true that every person I've talked t…

Let's apply this to bankers, too. They must give a checking account to anybody who shows up, and their pay can be based on how much money is in those checking accounts at the end of the fiscal year.

a teacher's job is to teach their students. a "banker" (at the sort of bank where you might open a checking account) isn't expected to grow your checking account for you. you're supposed to do that, and the bank is supposed to hold it safely. I don't understand the comparison you are trying to make.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#347

Post by throw9away6 » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 3:07 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #324

throw9away6 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s the reverse. The baseline remedial student growth is say .8 grades per year. Therefore to get 1.0 grades of progress you would need 125% baseline effectiveness. To get the same with a 1.2 growth rate student it would only take 83%. Students also can’t be judged in isolation, remedial students adversely affect other students so that needs to be taken into account somehow. I’m not saying it couldn’t be don…

Not necessary. Do end of year testing, the same as is done today for assessing achievement levels.

You have to eliminate 3rd factor issues that the instructor has no control over and that’s the complicated part of the problem

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#348

Post by Izkata » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:10 AM UTC

scruple wrote: post #181

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in NY.

And in rural Ohio, in the '90s.

And Illinois, early 2000s

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#349

Post by cjohnson318 » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:33 AM UTC

vacuity wrote: post #284

cpursley wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful, you’re not allowed to utter the “C” word here in relation to educational outcomes. (The word is “Culture”)

Your phrasing is crude but there is truth in it. In theory, African-American communities could be much better off with some drastic changes in culture, and it would be far more feasible for the government to pick up the slack and level the playing field (affordable quality education, abolish legacy admissions, etc.). Any amount of public school infrastructure and funding doesn't inherently get people to learn; studen…

> In theory, African-American communities could be much better off with some drastic changes in culture

African-American communities could be a lot better off if they had been able to take advantage of the same veterans benefits programs that white veterans were able to take advantage of, if they had been able to get home loans on the same terms that white counterparts were able to, if Black professionals had been able find work outside of Black operated businesses, and so on.

But yeah, Black people are real lazy if you just ignore hundreds of years of history. Black people ain't lazy, they just don't have the same opportunities as everyone else because when they walk into an interview with a white manager, there's a real good chance that manager is thinking something like, "In theory, African-American communities could be much better off with some drastic changes in culture".

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#350

Post by vacuity » Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 4:58 AM UTC

cjohnson318 wrote: post #349

vacuity wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your phrasing is crude but there is truth in it. In theory, African-American communities could be much better off with some drastic changes in culture, and it would be far more feasible for the government to pick up the slack and level the playing field (affordable quality education, abolish legacy admissions, etc.). Any amount of public school infrastructure and funding doesn't inherently get people to learn; studen…

> In theory, African-American communities could be much better off with some drastic changes in culture African-American communities could be a lot better off if they had been able to take advantage of the same veterans benefits programs that white veterans were able to take advantage of, if they had been able to get home loans on the same terms that white counterparts were able to, if Black professionals had been ab…

You're not addressing what I said. I recognize that African-Ammericans are generally very disadvantaged by a multitude of factors that they had no control over. However, a drastic change in culture that embraces education could improve outcomes signficantly, and ample government support could boost this to the point of actual equality being viable in a few generations. I don't remember if it was Kenyan, Nairobi, or other immigrants, but I remember reading about certain African-American immigrants being focused on education and doing fairly well (don't remember how well), like the Chinese immigrants mentioned upthread.