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Defecting from North Korea is now harder

nytimes.com

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Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#111

Post by palata »

golergka wrote: post #78
palata wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you mean "authoritarian" regimes? Communism doesn't imply the same things.

Communist theory may not imply those things, but it always comes down to them in practice. I have a theory that if you jump of a tall building and wave your hands really hard, you can fly. This theory does not imply you falling to your death. And if you do, it just means you weren't really following my method.

> Communist theory may not imply those things

Then just don't mix up the words, I guess? Otherwise you end up saying nonsense like this:

> I have a theory that if you jump of a tall building and wave your hands really hard, you can fly. This theory does not imply you falling to your death. And if you do, it just means you weren't really following my method.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#112

Post by nullandvoid »

fndex wrote: post #47
ornornor wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also a country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their great leader is born under a double rainbow and descended straight from heaven, didn’t defecate ever, learnt to walk aged 3 weeks (yup) and to speak 5 weeks later at 8 weeks (yup), wrote 1500 books over 3 years, along with 6 operas (the bestest in the history of music, no less), and scored a 38 under par with 11 holes in one on the one and only N…

I'm sure you learned all that from other US/South Korean articles like this one, right? I watched a documentary about North Korean defectors that wanted to go back to North Korea, one of the many reasons was to be with their families. They never mentioned their family were imprisioned. And it wouldn't make much sense to want to go back if their family was imprisioned. Again, I'm no North Korean supporter or whatever,…

I'm not the most educated in this area, however this episode of darknet diaries (which seems to be well researched of the many I have listened to) paints a similar picture to OP https://open.spotify.com/episode/0DsGyzP9fYQ9LM6YiT5NS7?si=L... and includes interviews from several defectors.

It seems disingenuous to try and brush off the well documented brutality that is the way of life in North Korea, as being something made up by US / South Korea..

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#113

Post by cushychicken »

karaterobot wrote: post #23

That was harrowing. There were a couple things I didn't understand: 1. What changed about China's surveillance systems or procedures to make them ~20x more effective at catching refugees in a couple years? 2. There's a bit about how North Korean refugees can apply for asylum in South Korea. I was under the impression (from Barbara Demick's book Nothing to Envy ) that all North Koreans are more or less granted asylum…

Re: point 1 -

1. Widespread surveillance camera emplacements, especially in large cities and over highways.

2. Widespread and explicit/implicit use of facial recognition software in conjunction with said camera systems.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#114

Post by More-nitors »

fndex wrote: post #72
tensor wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely despise this "every story has two sides" quip. No, every story doesn't have two sides. Yes, every story has multiple versions full of complete bullshit, but when we talk about a "side" we mean a reputable reliable side, and it is not the case that every story has two equally debatable and reputable sides. Sometimes a spade is a spade.

I see where you are coming from, and I'm not saying that North Korean media or propaganda is reliable or the absolute truth. But does that mean the US "side" is reliable? Is the US really on the "right side" of the history of the world? For exemple, did you know the US launched 3 bombs for every person in Laos? There are VILLAGES in Laos built with unexploded bomb left overs from the Vietnam War. Did you know that th…

> Are they really insterested in telling us the truth or are they just saying/doing whatever is needed to protect their interests?

regardless of that, shouldn't you also truly believe on "let North Koreans travel freely"?

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#115

Post by mitt_romney_12 »

ornornor wrote: post #39
fndex wrote: post #30

I'm not saying North Korea is a paradise or anything, but the country is technically still at war with the South Korea, which is heavily backed by the US. I wonder how much can be trusted from a NY Times(a US media company) article written by the "Seoul bureau chief for The New York Times".

It’s also a country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their great leader is born under a double rainbow and descended straight from heaven, didn’t defecate ever, learnt to walk aged 3 weeks (yup) and to speak 5 weeks later at 8 weeks (yup), wrote 1500 books over 3 years, along with 6 operas (the bestest in the history of music, no less), and scored a 38 under par with 11 holes in one on the one and only N…

The media has a propensity to basically report anything people say about North Korea, no matter how ridiculous [1]. For example back in 2014 a bunch of news sources reported that Kim Jong Un fed his uncle to a pack of dogs, the only source for the story was a random blog that turned out to be a Chinese satirist but the media ran with it because it fit the narrative of "the crazy hermit kingdom". In fact even golf story you cited here is completely invented [3]. There are a lot of problems with North Korea, but at the same time there is a lot of misinformation being willfully spread by the media.

[1]: https://www.dw.com/en/north-korea-fake-news-on-both-sides-is...

[2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-25621324

[3]: https://www.youngpioneertours.com/top-five-best-fake-north-k...

Other sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_coverage_of_North_Korea#...

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/01/true-or-false-...

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#116

Post by YLYvYkHeB2NRNT »

Waterluvian wrote: post #92
HDMI_Cable wrote: post #71

Wow, that was absolutely harrowing. Easily the most emotionally powerful thing I've read in the NYTimes (or any other major newspaper) in a while. It really puts into perspective just how horrible the conditions are for these people; it's easy to hear about NK in the news, or hear about defectors, and think little of it except for "what a shame", but this really puts into context the sheer inhumanity of the situation…

The horror of when humans are seen as a renewable natural resource.

[flagged]

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#117

Post by xoa »

jeremyjh wrote: post #107
kijin wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The South Korean constitution treats North Korea as an integral part of its territory, currently occupied by hostile forces. Therefore, anyone from North Korea is automatically, and in fact always has been, a citizen of South Korea. It's not just asylum, nor "de facto" citizenship. It's full citizenship, period. There's a mandatory program that every refugee must go through, not only to get them accustomed to South K…

Who are the occupiers of North Korea if there are no North Koreans? edit: This was an honest question, I don't understand the reason for downvotes.

>Who are the occupiers of North Korea if there are no North Koreans?

South Korean criminals I'd assume? It'd be like if some American militia suddenly seized some area of land and declared themselves a new independent country and began oppressing everyone already living there. The US wouldn't recognize that (and would move to stop them), but while of course the civilians there wouldn't lose citizenship, the militia wouldn't legally lose citizenship either. They'd just be criminals. Citizenship is a fairly big deal and it's not trivial to renounce it. In the US at least IIRC you literally cannot renounce citizenship domestically at all outside very rare exceptions, you must be abroad and do so at a consulate or embassy, and it's something considered not automatic and instant. Additionally one can be charged an exit tax depending on net worth and tax status.

SK of course will have its own rules, but I'm just saying as a matter of law "everyone in that area of our country is citizens of our country being illegally coerced/controlled by other citizens of country, who are criminals" wouldn't be that strange. Although often countries facing such a de facto split work something out legally, there's no inherent reason countries can't refuse to legally recognize things indefinitely.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#118

Post by mitt_romney_12 »

npteljes wrote: post #50
fndex wrote: post #30

I'm not saying North Korea is a paradise or anything, but the country is technically still at war with the South Korea, which is heavily backed by the US. I wonder how much can be trusted from a NY Times(a US media company) article written by the "Seoul bureau chief for The New York Times".

As with any news, you take it with a pinch of salt. Nothing new here. Are there particular things in this report which you don't agree with, or consider suspicious, or know that it's an outright lie?

News about North Korea should be taken with a very large grain of slat given the medias history of reporting fake news about them [1][2][3][4] (note: I am definitely not pro-North Korea and this story is obviously very bad, but I think people should be a little more skeptical about North Korea news)

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/01/true-or-false-...

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-25621324

[3] https://www.dw.com/en/north-korea-fake-news-on-both-sides-is...

[4] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/fake-news-north-k...

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#119

Post by fndex »

More-nitors wrote: post #114
fndex wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see where you are coming from, and I'm not saying that North Korean media or propaganda is reliable or the absolute truth. But does that mean the US "side" is reliable? Is the US really on the "right side" of the history of the world? For exemple, did you know the US launched 3 bombs for every person in Laos? There are VILLAGES in Laos built with unexploded bomb left overs from the Vietnam War. Did you know that th…

> Are they really insterested in telling us the truth or are they just saying/doing whatever is needed to protect their interests? regardless of that, shouldn't you also truly believe on "let North Koreans travel freely"?

Sorry, I'm not following. Could you rephrase your question? Are you asking me if I believe North Koreans should have the right to travel freely? If so, yes, I do believe that.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#120

Post by dragonwriter »

jeremyjh wrote: post #107
kijin wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The South Korean constitution treats North Korea as an integral part of its territory, currently occupied by hostile forces. Therefore, anyone from North Korea is automatically, and in fact always has been, a citizen of South Korea. It's not just asylum, nor "de facto" citizenship. It's full citizenship, period. There's a mandatory program that every refugee must go through, not only to get them accustomed to South K…

Who are the occupiers of North Korea if there are no North Koreans? edit: This was an honest question, I don't understand the reason for downvotes.

> Who are the occupiers of North Korea if there are no North Koreans?

Rebels, traitors, and criminals (at least, those claiming to be the North Korean government, or its active adherents), just as was the case of the self-described Confederate States of America within the terriory of the USA.

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