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Defecting from North Korea is now harder

nytimes.com

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Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#31

Post by boeingUH60 »

phatskat wrote: post #25
boeingUH60 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every communist regime becomes authoritarian; none has proven otherwise. But we can see many examples of successful capitalist countries with democracy and freedom, even though they aren't perfect.

An argument I’ve seen is that we haven’t seen a truly communist country yet. The most promising ones (imo) were smaller countries who’s communist ambitions were stifled by American-backed coups. Many of the earlier communist leaders like Lenin and Mao also knew that their countries weren’t communist in practice, as you can’t slip a switch and suddenly you have working communism. Their goals were to establish governme…

Oh yeah, the old and tired argument that we haven't seen "true communism". I'm still waiting for it but till then, the ideology can be deemed invalid. I wonder if people that give this argument realize that they sound like religious cultists saying we haven't reached the true promise land...let's push harder! (despite all evidence being against them).

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#32

Post by BoxFour »

karaterobot wrote: post #23

That was harrowing. There were a couple things I didn't understand: 1. What changed about China's surveillance systems or procedures to make them ~20x more effective at catching refugees in a couple years? 2. There's a bit about how North Korean refugees can apply for asylum in South Korea. I was under the impression (from Barbara Demick's book Nothing to Envy ) that all North Koreans are more or less granted asylum…

1. The article briefly discusses the impact of COVID, highlighting China's implementation of supplementary measures and limitations during this period. It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts. However, as the article states it can also be used for malicious exploitation.

2. If your question is about why they go to Thailand instead of stopping in Laos: Thailand is reluctant to repatriate individuals back to North Korea, while Laos does not share the same reluctance.

For the more general question: It is understandable that South Korea would scrutinize refugees to some extent to prevent the infiltration of espionage agents and similar threats.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#36

Post by gloryjulio »

phatskat wrote: post #25
boeingUH60 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every communist regime becomes authoritarian; none has proven otherwise. But we can see many examples of successful capitalist countries with democracy and freedom, even though they aren't perfect.

An argument I’ve seen is that we haven’t seen a truly communist country yet. The most promising ones (imo) were smaller countries who’s communist ambitions were stifled by American-backed coups. Many of the earlier communist leaders like Lenin and Mao also knew that their countries weren’t communist in practice, as you can’t slip a switch and suddenly you have working communism. Their goals were to establish governme…

> Capitalism may “work”, but it’s definitely not sustainable without checks and balances and limits on wealth accumulation and influence. Allowed to roam free, it’s disingenuous to say they “aren’t perfect”, they’re destroying the planet and its people.

I don't see how this wouldn't apply to so called working communism, if there is any

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#37

Post by alphanullmeric »

barneygale wrote: post #14
golergka wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

North Korea is democratic - it's right there in the "DPRK" name. Does it also call itself communist? Then it must be!

They’re not communist because they call themselves communist, they’re communist because communists agree with what they do. Stealing other people’s things, censoring opposing opinions, killing people they don’t like and making it illegal to leave are all very communist ideas. Seemingly the only thing communists don’t like about these “not true communist” countries is that they weren’t successful.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#38

Post by sharikous »

fndex wrote: post #30

I'm not saying North Korea is a paradise or anything, but the country is technically still at war with the South Korea, which is heavily backed by the US. I wonder how much can be trusted from a NY Times(a US media company) article written by the "Seoul bureau chief for The New York Times".

You are perfectly right. Still "not a paradise" is an exaggerated euphemism once you look at available data (not only American).

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#39

Post by ornornor »

fndex wrote: post #30

I'm not saying North Korea is a paradise or anything, but the country is technically still at war with the South Korea, which is heavily backed by the US. I wonder how much can be trusted from a NY Times(a US media company) article written by the "Seoul bureau chief for The New York Times".

It’s also a country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their great leader is born under a double rainbow and descended straight from heaven, didn’t defecate ever, learnt to walk aged 3 weeks (yup) and to speak 5 weeks later at 8 weeks (yup), wrote 1500 books over 3 years, along with 6 operas (the bestest in the history of music, no less), and scored a 38 under par with 11 holes in one on the one and only North Korea golf course the first time he ever picked up a golf club before retiring from the sport for ever.

Oh and also if your family is deemed a dissident, the next 3–4 generations (including unborn children) will be imprisoned and raised in prison labor camps where children get killed by bashing their skulls open for stealing one (yes a single) grain of rice.

Not a paradise indeed. I’m not convinced the sanctions have much to do with any of the above though.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#40

Post by phatskat »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #31
phatskat wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An argument I’ve seen is that we haven’t seen a truly communist country yet. The most promising ones (imo) were smaller countries who’s communist ambitions were stifled by American-backed coups. Many of the earlier communist leaders like Lenin and Mao also knew that their countries weren’t communist in practice, as you can’t slip a switch and suddenly you have working communism. Their goals were to establish governme…

Oh yeah, the old and tired argument that we haven't seen "true communism". I'm still waiting for it but till then, the ideology can be deemed invalid. I wonder if people that give this argument realize that they sound like religious cultists saying we haven't reached the true promise land...let's push harder! (despite all evidence being against them).

Oh I’m not pushing for them to “keep waiting”. I personally am of a mind that if you’re going to do “real communism” then just do it - don’t know how that works or looks, but we inevitably end up with governments like China when going the stop-gap route.

Personally I’d be more in favor of socialism. Even that requires a lot of retooling, and most countries would have an easier time with more regulated capitalism backed by more socialist governments.

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