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Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

arstechnica.com

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Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#41

Post by passwordoops »

zeroCalories wrote: post #37

I like that we're moving in the direction of repairability. I haven't needed to upgrade my pixel 2, and I would love it if I could simply replace parts as needed instead of buying a whole new phone. That said, it seems clear that phone makers would prefer you upgrade every two years. Wonder if we will see regulation around that in the coming years.

>seems clear that phone makers would prefer you upgrade every two years

And of course they all have PR and websites devoted to how much they care about the environment, even positive ESG scores in some cases

Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#42

Post by lawn »

TheMode wrote: post #21
mrpopo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also provide 5-year software support. https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/997918043739... > For Fairphone 4, we guarantee software support until the end of 2026, this includes an upgrade to Android 12 and, later on, Android 13.

That's not solving anything at all, what we need is hardware that doesn't need to have its software updated constantly. If you cannot have that, I wouldn't consider it ""sustainable"". There is nothing sustainable about depending on some company on the other side on the world to do the right thing continuously. Now sure, you could answer that they are doing it better than others and you may be perfectly right, but is…

> what we need is hardware that doesn't need to have its software updated constantly.

That's just not possible if you value security at all.

Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#43

Post by jaylittle »

Years ago this would've been interesting to me. But it took too long. Given that the Fairphone 4 has been out everywhere else for years now and there wasn't even a peep of it coming to the US, I decided to jump ship for an iPhone.

If I couldn't get a truly repairable phone, then at least I could buy the one that would likely last the longest given the wide availability of official repair outlets (e.g. Apple Stores) and the history of solid software support for at least five years.

So that's where I am at. Thankfully things are looking a bit better on the laptop side of the repairability fence. I have every intention of pre-ordering a Framework 16 the second pre-orders open.

Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#44

Post by TheMode »

throwawayadvsec wrote: post #34
TheMode wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will likely have some software compatibility/security issue by using a 10y old phone. Theoretically I do not have to, but software is designed with constant internal requirement changes.

Every single useful device on earth that is connected to the internet needs to be updated regularly. You sounds like a salesperson telling a dev "why didn't you make our software bug free and vulnerability free????" You're free to use Windows XP and a Nokia 3310.

> Every single useful device on earth that is connected to the internet needs to be updated regularly.

Could you explain me why?

I am not saying that developer should simply make software bug free, I know that this is impossible, I however believe that you could heavily reduce friction point by simply having less code, and reducing the software reliance on the hardware/OS

Monolithic projects like Android prevents it from happening, you have to depend on that huge codebase to run any software, and as every software must follow Android update path, you need to continuously update your hardware

Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#45

Post by pmontra »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #40
miduil wrote: post #12

I really wish Fairphone 4 had GrapheneOS support, but after almost 4 years of Fairphone 3 I decided to go with a Pixel instead. Too many hardware bugs with the FP3 that were never acknowledged by the vendor and unhappy customers with bricked FP4's that requires sending them back in. Also I would have hoped for them continuing the FP3 architecture, feels such a waste that they've now instead developed a much more expe…

I wished there was a Graphene/Lineage OS phone (OEM supported; not “flash it yourself” sorcery needed kinda thing). And something within the size of original iPhone SE or Mini with just even an above average battery. I’d pay a premium for that phone. It’s my wishful thinking about smartphones.

I'm with you for a smaller phone. A Sony Xperia X Compact with no bezel would be great https://gsmarena.com/sony_xperia_x_compact-8292.php

And the lightness!

Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#46

Post by jokoon »

So does it mean it's not possible to have popular apps like whatsapp or Tinder on this?

I also wish it was just a phone with much less performance for a smaller price.

I want something durable and repairable, not something fast, Wirth's law is very important to consider when consider software and hardware. I hope they will make such phone, one day, because I am not spending that much money for a phone.

I bought a 150 euro phone and it already lasted 3 years, because even if a phone becomes obsolete, it is still cheaper, per year, to use crappy phones, than to use a durable expensive phone.

If your really care about fairness and the environment, make lightweight hardware and software.

Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#47

Post by cge »

miduil wrote: post #12

I really wish Fairphone 4 had GrapheneOS support, but after almost 4 years of Fairphone 3 I decided to go with a Pixel instead. Too many hardware bugs with the FP3 that were never acknowledged by the vendor and unhappy customers with bricked FP4's that requires sending them back in. Also I would have hoped for them continuing the FP3 architecture, feels such a waste that they've now instead developed a much more expe…

To add to that last point, after some time being frustrated with an FP4 and browsing the FP forums: it's not just availability of spare parts to repair shops. There doesn't appear to be a single mention in the forums of a repair shop willing to work on the FP4. There are numerous mentions of repair shops that are unwilling to, and of people being unable to find repair shops. Warranty repair is actually outsourced to a generic warranty support company that appears to operate on standard, replace-everything basis.

Apparently, for the FP4 (reportedly in a departure from some previous devices), all software development is also outsourced. Security patches are often months out of date. Known defects with basic functionality (camera hardware should be fine, but is almost unusable for many tasks because of poor firmware/software making, eg, focusing ridiculously slow; microphone noise and echo reduction has serious problems for calls, etc) go unaddressed, or, in worse cases, are acknowledged as something that won't be fixed, especially for the bizarre security flaw that the manufacturer's official OS is signed by test keys, and the device is set to trust test keys, something that apparently can't be changed, and makes the device one minor leak away from having secure boot entirely broken. This is apparently one of the reasons why GrapheneOS developers refuse to consider supporting it. At the same time, other flaws in the security design make it very easy to brick the device, as you point out, and FP charges for unbricking (the test key problem apparently makes it unsafe for them to release a fix): in one case on the forum, a user bricked the device by correctly following FP's own official instructions for updating the OS manually, and FP refused to unbrick it without charge.

I was astonishingly disappointed by the FP4, to be honest, and by Fairphone in general.

Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#48

Post by londons_explore »

phh wrote: post #36
TheMode wrote: post #14

Is the hardware really the bottleneck to sustainable device? The software seems more much important but nobody is tackling it. Having a phone with a new battery doesn't matter if I can't run the same apps as others.

As a software engineer who spend the vast majority of his time on (successfully) putting newer Android versions on the vast majority of older Android devices: Yes the hardware is the bottleneck. This pains me, because what I can do is software, not hardware, where I spend all of my time is software. An app just needs to target Android 7 to target 95%+ of users (so "only" 5% additional e-waste). And for app developers…

For most users, it only takes one critical app to say it refuses to run because the device is too old, and the user will upgrade.

Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#49

Post by TheMode »

phh wrote: post #36
TheMode wrote: post #14

Is the hardware really the bottleneck to sustainable device? The software seems more much important but nobody is tackling it. Having a phone with a new battery doesn't matter if I can't run the same apps as others.

As a software engineer who spend the vast majority of his time on (successfully) putting newer Android versions on the vast majority of older Android devices: Yes the hardware is the bottleneck. This pains me, because what I can do is software, not hardware, where I spend all of my time is software. An app just needs to target Android 7 to target 95%+ of users (so "only" 5% additional e-waste). And for app developers…

I fully understand your concerns, but still I believe that you aren't asking yourself the right question. Why do you need to port newer Android versions on older devices at all? It seems like the real problem to me.

Why do running newer software must depend on a newer operating system? Do you believe that everything that is part of the android codebase is necessary to run a chat app?

Part of the problem is that we seemingly gave up on trying to make software stable, and now we are wrongly putting the blame on hardware manufacturers for not wanting to spend their whole life supporting it

Re: Fairphone 4 is coming to the US

#50

Post by morsch »

londons_explore wrote: post #38
rmdes wrote: post #32

Issues with microphone on the FP4 that are not explainable but the good news is? I can just change the mic for 20 euro! The real issue with the FP4 is the camera. Ugly pictures, and under bad lightning its like taking picture on android a decade ago.. Albeit the pixel number is enough.

All modern smartphones have masses of proprietary stuff to turn gigabytes of raw data from the sensor into a beautiful photo. If you want an opensource phone, you end up with crappy photos unless you have a camera team of 500 people to rewrite that stuff, and a big team of lawyers to deal with all the patent licensing you're going to have to do for the techniques you use.

I'm not sure that it's truly all down to software, but as far as it is, you don't have start at zero -- there are excellent, competitive raw photo processors available as free software, like darktable and RawTherapee. Still a lot of work, though, no doubt.
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