California needs real math education, not gimmicks • Hacker News Board

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#51

Post by tyoma » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:21 AM UTC

goolulusaurs wrote: post #25

In my younger years, particularly during my schooling, I held a deep resentment towards the educational system. It felt overtly clear to me, as a student, that schools failed to effectively foster learning and growth. However, my perspective has evolved over time. I've come to understand that the issues I observed are not unique to the school system but rather characteristic of large institutions as a whole. The perv…

I think the core issue is that we expect institutions like schools to do multiple, often conflicting tasks. In the US, schools are expected to:

* Provide instruction to the median student. * Provide support services to those with learning or other disabilities. * Empower gifted students to learn to their potential. * Serve as an amateur sports league. * Distribute food to the hungry via the school lunch program * Serve as a point of preventative medical care (e.g. vision and dental screenings) * Screen children for abuse and neglect * Be a place children can be left while parents are at work

Some of these goals will be prioritized over others. The stated goal (education) is not always the goal taxpayers are most supportive of, via revealed preferences on the ballot when it comes to local school funding decisions.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#52

Post by romusha » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:21 AM UTC

If they underpay the teachers, then they don't need it. And people will be better off avoiding teaching as a career

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#53

Post by ochoseis » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:22 AM UTC

superchroma wrote: post #39

hnthrowaway0315 wrote: post #31

Well, "Yes Prime Minister" already figured it out. The whole education system is more for the welfare of bureaucracies and teachers/unions instead of students'. And that was some 40 years ago.

Teachers make very little money. Society has deemed them worth almost nothing despite the fact that they're pivotal in shaping minds; the future of america, and that they do very hard, frustrating work taking care of our spawn in a country where parents treat school like daycare instead of a place to learn. They wouldn't need a union to collectively bargain if they were taken care of properly. On the flipside, I ackn…

Teachers appear to earn an average of $79k in California[0], and are eligible for a pension[1] that probably boosts their earnings to the equivalent of a six-figure job. Also, they get summers and holidays off. Not silicon valley engineer money, but not bad.

[0]: https://www.niche.com/blog/teacher-salaries-in-america/ [1]: https://www.calstrs.com/retirement-benefits

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#54

Post by jncfhnb » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:22 AM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #24

I feel like the facts are a little thin. It is not really true that "For decades, American math curriculum has followed a standard sequence: arithmetic, algebra, geometry, algebra II, precalculus and trigonometry, and calculus." That may have been the local condition in some places. The high school in my city does not have and has never had any named math course except calculus and statistics. Everything else is just…

For me, New England, early 10s the algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, precalc, calc was the exact pattern.

Edit: despite the name, pre calc was basically entirely trigonometry.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#55

Post by readthenotes1 » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:25 AM UTC

smilekzs wrote: post #32

goolulusaurs wrote: post #25

In my younger years, particularly during my schooling, I held a deep resentment towards the educational system. It felt overtly clear to me, as a student, that schools failed to effectively foster learning and growth. However, my perspective has evolved over time. I've come to understand that the issues I observed are not unique to the school system but rather characteristic of large institutions as a whole. The perv…

a.k.a. Iron Law of Bureaucracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle#Pournelle's_ir...

Iirc in systemantics, it was phrased as "the goal of a system is to perpetuate and extend itself, not to achieve whatever it was created for"

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#56

Post by jncfhnb » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:25 AM UTC

JohnMakin wrote: post #11

algebra until highschool? some students can take it as early as 5th/6th grade. ludicrous.

Depends on definitions mostly. You’ll likely start doing things like simple linear equations, including algebraic notation before formally doing “algebra 1”

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#57

Post by bsder » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:27 AM UTC

goolulusaurs wrote: post #25

In my younger years, particularly during my schooling, I held a deep resentment towards the educational system. It felt overtly clear to me, as a student, that schools failed to effectively foster learning and growth. However, my perspective has evolved over time. I've come to understand that the issues I observed are not unique to the school system but rather characteristic of large institutions as a whole. The perv…

> It felt overtly clear to me, as a student, that schools failed to effectively foster learning and growth.

Schools reflect the values that parents impress upon them.

The vast majority of parents want free daycare and a "Magic Paper(tm)" that gets their child into a college higher than what their child is actually qualified for. Nothing else.

So, you can complain about education not supporting "learning and growth". And you can complain about the bureaucracy. However, parents have made their wishes very loud and clear over the last several decades about exactly what they want out of the public education system.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#58

Post by ip26 » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:28 AM UTC

superchroma wrote: post #39

hnthrowaway0315 wrote: post #31

Well, "Yes Prime Minister" already figured it out. The whole education system is more for the welfare of bureaucracies and teachers/unions instead of students'. And that was some 40 years ago.

Teachers make very little money. Society has deemed them worth almost nothing despite the fact that they're pivotal in shaping minds; the future of america, and that they do very hard, frustrating work taking care of our spawn in a country where parents treat school like daycare instead of a place to learn. They wouldn't need a union to collectively bargain if they were taken care of properly. On the flipside, I ackn…

The two are probably the opposite sides of the same coin. If it was a prestigious and well paid profession, a career flame-out would not be able to land a job teaching.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#59

Post by blindriver » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:29 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #35

HWR_14 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Education is the single biggest factor to driving social mobility of the poor to middle class, and middle class to wealthy Is it? Any evidence that supports the idea that the quality of K-12 education matters at all?

We seem to expect it to fix poverty. We should fix poverty, and use public education to fix dumb kids.

You fix poverty by educating children and letting them grow up in a safe area free from crime. Educated children get put on the right path in life and lift themselves out of poverty.

That's how Asian countries like Japan and Korea pulled themselves out of poverty in the matter of decades. During the 1950s and 1960s, South Korea was one of the poorest countries in the world, and by the 1980s, was considered an economic miracle.

Re: California needs real math education, not gimmicks

#60

Post by slt2021 » Sun, Jul 09, 2023, 2:32 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #48

c_crank wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only incentive that works is letting such institutions crash and burn and be replaced. Even giant monopolies can end up losing money and going under.

In the context of Education or you have an entranched monopoly, this means voting for private school vouchers.

private school vouchers seems like a great idea, but I am afraid it will mirror college situation.

most state schools will have bare bones programs, except few select, while private schools will be many levels ahead and become "elite".

do we want "ivy league" situation with K-12 education system?