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When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

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Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#341

Post by [deleted] »

ryandrake wrote: post #90
mormegil wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> apps could not require users to have “an account” in order to run There is some big qualification missing or I don't understand what does that even mean. How could a banking app run without an account? An online game? The Twitter app nowadays? Dropbox/Nextcloud/...? Etc. Yeah, I agree that for a lot of apps, requiring a account is just a marketing gimmick, but I don't think such a general rule could work.

Good question! We actually asked Apple exactly this when appealing the AppStore de-listing. How come others can require an account and we can't? What was it about our app that made us have to spend the engineering effort to add a guest login (this was a disingenuous argument that I advised against, since we deliberately spent engineering effort to require the login)? Their response, not the exact wording since it was…

[deleted]

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#342

Post by charcircuit »

NoRelToEmber wrote: post #304
charcircuit wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>region-locked apps There is no such thing. The respective app stores allow you to distribute apps in select regions. This is an important feature for app stores because an app may not be a good experience in all countries. The app may not be localized to all languages, there may not be content moderators for those languages, those countries have a multitude of laws that you need to comply with, your app may include…

Your answer amounts to "Yes, both those things exist to the detriment of the user, but they were requested for the benefit of corporate app writers, so it's okay that the device the user supposedly owns obeys someone else."

>to the detriment of the user

Except these features are not to the detriment of users. If apps were not region locked at the store either they just won't be in the store or they will implement the region lock themselves. Similarly DRM is seemless for users. The users get the same media watching experience they expect, but the content is securely played to stop people from making illegal copies.

>the device the user supposedly owns obeys someone else

The user may own the device, but they don't own a movie that the device is playing. Your device isn't obeying someone else. DRM is a feature that lets your device handle other people's content in a safe manor.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#343

Post by charcircuit »

kerkeslager wrote: post #305
charcircuit wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>no, that's impossible When you are a platform owner it is important that you evaluate the needs of all stakeholders and not just the needs of the users of the platforms. Telling app developers that you are not willing to compromise is not a great way to convince them to create apps for your platform. Also as a platform you want your platform to appear as a safe place for content owners to have their content on. You…

> When you are a platform owner it is important that you evaluate the needs of all stakeholders and not just the needs of the users of the platforms. I disagree. The literal entire purpose of every single non-user entity involved in this situation is to serve users, and if it's not serving users, then that's a systemic failure. If corporations want a place at the table, they should be serving users, and if they can't…

>they should be serving users

Bringing content users want to watch is serving users.

>DRM should be illegal, period

Why? It is preventing users from doing illegal things. Saying that DRM should be removed so that users can make illegal copies of the media they are watching is not a strong argument to me.

>Our economy should be designed to serve people, not corporations

People make content and people want to be able to have their copyright not be infringed. Computers by default make it way to easy to violate the copyright of creators which in why making it possible to secure content is such a valuable idea.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#344

Post by didntcheck »

H8crilA wrote: post #221
kubik369 wrote: post #206

I am surprised no top comment mentions this — on iOS, you cannot distinguish if you were granted a permission or not. As an example, if an app asks you for access to your photos, it will always get an array. The trick is that when you deny this permission, the array will be empty, so you cannot know if the user simply has an empty library or if he denied you access. I like it, simple and elegant. Naturally, in the ca…

How does that work for location? Also, an empty folder with photos is almost certainly implying lack of permissions. Very few people never took a picture.

I suppose they could select a random location within the country/state. Even select it with population weight so that the app would struggle to infer if it was being spoofed. As with any spoofing, it would be necessary to store some state for each app, and generate locations similar to the last one (but not too similar. Random weighted walk maybe, weighted towards some randomly chosen "home" and "work" and hangout places, ideally based at actual buildings in the right districts?)

If you want to go even harder you could try to do the same with images. Generate some basic images of typical snapshot scenes with some AI model, and further postprocess the pixel data to try and give it a statistical distribution that looks like a real camera rather than AI. Add some realistic EXIF too. Doing this on demand may be quite expensive, so the phone could pre-fill a cache of fresh images during quiet hours or something

This all sounds very excessive, but I will give Apple credit and say they're one company who I could actually see going to these lengths if they decided they wanted it

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#345

Post by progval »

charcircuit wrote: post #343
kerkeslager wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you are a platform owner it is important that you evaluate the needs of all stakeholders and not just the needs of the users of the platforms. I disagree. The literal entire purpose of every single non-user entity involved in this situation is to serve users, and if it's not serving users, then that's a systemic failure. If corporations want a place at the table, they should be serving users, and if they can't…

>they should be serving users Bringing content users want to watch is serving users. >DRM should be illegal, period Why? It is preventing users from doing illegal things. Saying that DRM should be removed so that users can make illegal copies of the media they are watching is not a strong argument to me. >Our economy should be designed to serve people, not corporations People make content and people want to be able t…

DRM also prevents users from doing legal things. Such as making copies for personal use, which is legal in France. Or when done by library or archive, in the US. Or copying short clips, which is legal as "fair use" in many jurisdictions.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#346

Post by dbgev »

ryandrake wrote: post #27

I’m all for the “fake data” idea, but also: Apps should be required to gracefully handle the cases where users deny permission to access real data. I know last time I developed for iOS, it was Apple’s policy that apps cannot punish users or exit() the app in retaliation for them denying a permission. Apps must gracefully handle it and continue running. Also, and this was even longer ago, apps could not require users…

If apps are threatened with fake data, they will quickly find it's better to let users opt out gracefully, no regulation required.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#347

Post by wruza »

grishka wrote: post #226
wruza wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you and me have both worlds to choose from (not gonna reiterate pros/cons hundredth time). You are living in yours, but I have to lose mine. By me I mean all those people who chose Apple for what it is and ignore Android for what it is, with regards to what we’re talking about. You have no real problem, only intrusive ideology. Please relax and leave us alone. We’ll speak for ourselves when we feel wronged.

As an app developer, I do have a very real problem. I don't want Apple to impose their agenda on me and act like they own the relationship between me and my users. In particular, Apple should have no opinion on what kind of UGC my app contains if it's rated 18+. Apple should also stop protecting their own products by rejecting apps that cut into their market. But of course, Apple would do none of these things volunta…

Yes, some ios devs have a problem using dark patterns and peeking into where their nose doesn’t belong, but it’s not a problem anyone wants to solve or consider as such.

We choose it because it repels this “me wanna you should they need to” attitude. Please make apps that obey the rules or ignore the platform. Don’t tell anyone what they have to do for you without a contract.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#348

Post by wruza »

grishka wrote: post #331
scarface_74 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which app does Apple reject that cuts into “their market”? Office apps (iWork)? There is Office 365, GSuite Storage providers (iCloud)? All third party storage providers show up next to iCloud when you use the file dialog box - DropBox, Box, Google Drive, One Drive Streaming apps (AppleTV)? There are dozens and when you search for a TV show or movie, the AppleTV app will tell you which subscribe services have it?…

> So which app does Apple reject that cuts into “their market”? Netflix's "you can't sign up through the app" is a prime example of this that immediately comes to mind but there are many more. An argument can be made that hey.com is, in a way, competitor to the paid iCloud subscription. Yet Apple acts as if they own that relationship and that the app store was valuable in bringing the users to the app: https://www.he…

in a FREE market, app developers would offer two options: pay through Apple with their 30% tax, or pay directly without it

In reality they will make scummest apps possible and ignore the AppStore completely. Only very big players and those whose primary target is AppStore anyway will offer two options.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#349

Post by devilbunny »

Cyberdog wrote: post #332
devilbunny wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me push back against that a bit. My phone is not a fashion piece. AFAICT the blue bubbles will show up with an old 4S just as well as with a 14 Pro Max. I have an iPhone - which I got after many years with Android - because iMessage is an essential app for me. I live in the US, so my business partners do not have [choice of alternative messaging app] installed and they are not going to install it just for me. I'm…

> Or how Apple is being a gigantic bunch of assholes by not using something other than vanilla SMS if you're not an iMessage user. What alternative would you suggest? And is that alternative as universal as SMS?

I'm a doctor, not a phone technologist!

But on Android, you can replace the default messaging app, and that app can have access to SMS as a fallback, so it's really easy to convince people to switch. "Hey, uh, plain messaging is annoying some of us, please install this app, we can all use it, but it will work even with people who don't have it over the regular text service."

Can't do that on iOS.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#350

Post by scarface_74 »

grishka wrote: post #331
scarface_74 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which app does Apple reject that cuts into “their market”? Office apps (iWork)? There is Office 365, GSuite Storage providers (iCloud)? All third party storage providers show up next to iCloud when you use the file dialog box - DropBox, Box, Google Drive, One Drive Streaming apps (AppleTV)? There are dozens and when you search for a TV show or movie, the AppleTV app will tell you which subscribe services have it?…

> So which app does Apple reject that cuts into “their market”? Netflix's "you can't sign up through the app" is a prime example of this that immediately comes to mind but there are many more. An argument can be made that hey.com is, in a way, competitor to the paid iCloud subscription. Yet Apple acts as if they own that relationship and that the app store was valuable in bringing the users to the app: https://www.he…

> Netflix's "you can't sign up through the app" is a prime example of this that immediately comes to mind but there are many more.

He said the app was “rejected” as in not allowed in the store.

> Do you really think it's fair that all competing services have to be 30% more expensive than Apple's own ones if they play by Apple's rules?

Well seeing that neither Netflix, Hey or Spotify allow in app purchases and don’t pay Apple 30%…

> There used to be lots of iOS apps that allowed streaming pirated music. Everyone, including Apple, was seemingly fine with that and never asked where the music came from

When has Apple ever allowed apps that focused on pirated music?

And Apple has been selling music on the iPhone since the day it was introduced - well to be pedantic, three months after it went in sale.

> But if you so insist, in a FREE market, app developers would offer two options: pay through Apple with their 30% tax, or pay directly without it.

And there is nothing stopping you from doing that. In fact, Spotify did that for awhile.

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