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Langchain Is Pointless

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Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#101
post #85

The reason why Langchain is pointless is that it's trying to solve problems on top of technical foundations that just cannot support it. The #1 learning is that there is no reusability with the current generation of LLMs. We're using GPT-4 and 3.5T exclusively. Over the last several months, my team has been building several features using highly sophisticated LLM chains that do all manner of reasoning. The ultimate o…

I saw your comment, got curious, and looked at a lot of your old comments. Lots of interesting insights - Thanks for sharing them.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you do? I'm a researcher at FAANG working on language models and starting a new company in the space. Would love to connect. Feel free to email me - idyllic.bilges0p@icloud.com

Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#102
post #85

The reason why Langchain is pointless is that it's trying to solve problems on top of technical foundations that just cannot support it. The #1 learning is that there is no reusability with the current generation of LLMs. We're using GPT-4 and 3.5T exclusively. Over the last several months, my team has been building several features using highly sophisticated LLM chains that do all manner of reasoning. The ultimate o…

Much of why this stuff is not reusable is that eventually someone in the NLP world is going to properly migrate the features for promopt engineering that the coomers over in stable-diffusion/automatic1111 land have "pioneered", such as token weighting, negative prompts, token averaging, or etc. Literally all of these techniques work with regular LLMs (if you don't believe me, see here: https://gist.github.com/Hellisotherpeople/45c619ee22aac6865c...). NLP folks just haven't built the right tooling for it. Particularly sad since there's supposed to be an "Automatic1111 for LLMs" project called "Oogabooga" but it doesn't have any of the good features.

The future of LLM prompting will involve highly specialized and engineered prompts, much as is the case with most images seen on civit.ai

We are all likely to eventually throw away a lot of our current prompts

Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#103
post #98

Using an LLM framework at this moment doesn’t make sense and can be damaging, in my humble opinion. Ways to extract value from LLMs are in early exploration stage. Look at research in prompting: chain of thought, react, reflection, tree of thoughts, zero vs few hot etc. Then completion vs conversational interfacing. Then memory management via vector databases and prompt expansion vs compression vs progressive summari…

[flagged]

Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* didn't really get the joke, If you don't get it now, I'm worried about you:)

No no, that is the right tense! I thought initially it was like light sarcasm targeting the conceit of the reddit post, i.e., "how could it be pointless if I have amassed all this experience." Beyond that.. not sure (I'm not that smart). Perhaps its just something like: "the scandal that this library is bullshit amounts to not a lot considering it's still pretty new thing." But the, erm, strong showing of downvotes o…

The context for the joke is that some job listings have inflated requirements, like N years of experience from framework/language X that realistically nobody has (or in this case, can have)

Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any ideas what valuation range that might imply?

The rumored valuation was around $200M, and the product is pre-revenue right now. So that seems pretty ridiculous.

I’m curious - who gets screwed over the most here? Is it investors who got tricked into over valuing? Or langchain who now can’t meet their expected revenue targets and will be forced to pivot?

Speaking in hypothetical terms of course. I’m assuming the langchain folks are probably paying themselves pretty well and not working super hard (at least not on engineering stuff)?

Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#106

I have looked for the value and never really found it. It seems to mostly be (bad) abstractions around things you could easily do without langchain. Take one of the most important llm things: prompt templates. What does langchain add over a simple function and an f string? Maybe I'm missing the point, but I can't find anything. Anyway, it seems people like it so who am I to judge, but I don't like making our codebase…

> Take one of the most important llm things: prompt templates. What does langchain add over a simple function and an f string? Maybe I'm missing the point, but I can't find anything.

Seconding.

Ever since learning about it, then seeing a co-worker use it for some simple embedding job (and being impressed in how few lines of code it took, but that's actually not thanks to LangChain), then reading its docs end-to-end, about once a week, I find myself going through the following sequence of thoughts:

1. Alright, let's set up LangChain and implement my ${most recent harebrained idea};

2. Oh, but it's in Python. I don't like Python, I don't know Python, I hate dealing with its dependency issues even more than with NPM ones. Could I do things I need from it directly in ${my preferred environment, which half the time is just Emacs}?

3. Wait a minute. Chaining "DAGs" the way it does is basically equivalent to a sequence of function calls in a while loop, occasionally mixed with some if/else or goto. Generating prompts is... string interpolation that can be wrapped in a helper function. LMAO.

4. No, really. Why bother? The only useful thing here seems to be discoverability - i.e. a list of toolkits it supports, and said support working as intro 101 tutorial. Given the surface areas of those plugins are so small, I can literally wrap what I need in a bunch of functions, and then do the "chain" part as... plain old sequential code.

So yeah, right now, I think about the only value this project has is in being a convenient list of AI tools with examples of using their APIs. Everything else seems better done either by coding it directly, or (for certain needs) by building up a more complex dataflow framework.

Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#107

Coming from a frontend background this reminds me a lot of the frontend situation some years ago when it was super common to npm install the stupidest pointless packages. Of course some people still do, but hard lessons were learned and all experienced people I know are a lot more mindful and cautious what dependencies they add. It seems to me that this space, and maybe data science more broadly, is currently in that…

The problem is that coders are used to dealing with code. GPT-4 is a robust processor for semantics as conveyed by strings of characters. The whole point is that you don’t need code. You just ask it what you want.

But programmers love to think they can still make improvements to such a system using code. In reality, any improvements that can be made are the responsibility of f-strings and/or a templating mechanism and even that may be overkill in many cases.

Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#108
post #98

Using an LLM framework at this moment doesn’t make sense and can be damaging, in my humble opinion. Ways to extract value from LLMs are in early exploration stage. Look at research in prompting: chain of thought, react, reflection, tree of thoughts, zero vs few hot etc. Then completion vs conversational interfacing. Then memory management via vector databases and prompt expansion vs compression vs progressive summari…

[flagged]

Can you back that up?

I've looked at the documentation for both Microsoft Guidance and LMQL and they look like LangChain to me: frameworks where I'd have to spend a whole lot more time learning how to use them than if I just imported the OpenAI Python library directly and started running prompts through my own thin set of custom functions.

Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#109
Langchain was useful to me personally for two reasons: using their prompt templates as a starting point for my own, and seeing how their “tools” were built to learn about good Python libraries to build my own tools with.

Viewed through this lens, LangChain was more a “sample codebase” than a library for me, and it was reasonably good for that.

Re: Langchain Is Pointless

#110
post #85

The reason why Langchain is pointless is that it's trying to solve problems on top of technical foundations that just cannot support it. The #1 learning is that there is no reusability with the current generation of LLMs. We're using GPT-4 and 3.5T exclusively. Over the last several months, my team has been building several features using highly sophisticated LLM chains that do all manner of reasoning. The ultimate o…

Any chance you might have shared some of these hard-earned lessons, so that the rest of us could learn from them as well?
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