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When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

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Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#261

Post by jollygoodshow »

avar wrote: post #216
mormegil wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> apps could not require users to have “an account” in order to run There is some big qualification missing or I don't understand what does that even mean. How could a banking app run without an account? An online game? The Twitter app nowadays? Dropbox/Nextcloud/...? Etc. Yeah, I agree that for a lot of apps, requiring a account is just a marketing gimmick, but I don't think such a general rule could work.

> How could a banking app run without an account? I use two banking apps that have a FAQ feature that's just a fancy wrapper for their respective online knowledge bases. It's only due to laziness on their part that the entire app needs a login. Even if the only thing I'd like to do is browse the knowledge base. Similarly, you shouldn't need to be logged in to queue up an arbitrary number of transactions. To execute t…

How do you nominate which account to 'queue' up those transactions against? And what benefit does not logging in have when you have to login anyway to do actually do something? I'd rather everything be kept (relatively) secret and secure

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#262

Post by ciex »

JimDabell wrote: post #242
kubik369 wrote: post #206

I am surprised no top comment mentions this — on iOS, you cannot distinguish if you were granted a permission or not. As an example, if an app asks you for access to your photos, it will always get an array. The trick is that when you deny this permission, the array will be empty, so you cannot know if the user simply has an empty library or if he denied you access. I like it, simple and elegant. Naturally, in the ca…

> on iOS, you cannot distinguish if you were granted a permission or not. This isn’t correct. For instance, accessing location services provides CLAuthorizationStatus: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corelocation/claut... …and push notifications have UNAuthorizationStatus: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/... …and health data has HKAuthorizationStatus: https://developer.apple.com/…

I recently tried using Sony's (frustrating) Imaging Edge app to transfer photos from a camera to an iPad and gave it limited access and it refused to transfer images! When I changed the permissions to full access it worked. So there must be some difference, maybe not an obvious one.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#263

Post by floomk »

ethanbond wrote: post #259
floomk wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better response would be: "Thank you for making us aware, we will revisit their evaluation or update the guidelines" (and then they would actually do so) This isn't what's happening though. If you're a big app you get to do whatever you want, and if you're small then you have to do as you're told.

That would not be a better solution because it would entail either “solid” rules that are actually always fluctuating and/or people having prior assessments overturned after the fact. As opposed to… humans working through a specific situation for a specific solution?

It would at least strive for equality, instead of letting the big boys do whatever the hell they want while punishing everyone else (and making it impossible to compete).

There's also the ethical concern about how apple (or their reviewer) can bully you specifically which means there is no other way to delivery our software to your users, other than complying with a bully.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#264

Post by NekkoDroid »

plorkyeran wrote: post #247
grishka wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an app developer, I do have a very real problem. I don't want Apple to impose their agenda on me and act like they own the relationship between me and my users. In particular, Apple should have no opinion on what kind of UGC my app contains if it's rated 18+. Apple should also stop protecting their own products by rejecting apps that cut into their market. But of course, Apple would do none of these things volunta…

No, you can't choose to only install apps exclusively from the app store on macOS because the macOS app store is a barren wasteland. The MAS makes it very clear that the only reason app developers put up with the iOS app store restrictions is because they have no choice.

Google Play Store begs to differ

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#265

Post by floomk »

riwsky wrote: post #255
codeguro wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't get to dictate what constitutes a good user experience. Especially for me - that is my prerogative and mine alone. So yes, I will be extremely happy with it. This opens doors to all kinds of software that can compete with one another, and if I don't like it, I can simply uninstall it myself.

If open doors did a better job of UX than apple, then you would have been using Android instead of iOS in the first place

You're confusing first party apps with third party apps. Also you're forgetting that this is a forum which is heavily biased to developers. I use Android because my phone isn't a fashion piece. Some of my users sadly use iOS. They want the software on the devices they purchased and own, but Apple is preventing us from delivering this to them unless we do exactly as Apple commands.

So in the end everyone loses, except Apple.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#266

Post by progman32 »

qwerpy wrote: post #140
skinner927 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tasmota + CloudFree + Home Assistant and never make an account again and have full control over the devices in your home. No accounts and your lights still work when your internet is down.

I love my home assistant installation and didn’t even know about Tasmota/Cloudfree. Thanks for sharing, this is the next logical step to fully detaching from subscriptions/accounts.

Esphome is also good to learn about here.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#267

Post by scarface_74 »

grishka wrote: post #54
ryandrake wrote: post #27

I’m all for the “fake data” idea, but also: Apps should be required to gracefully handle the cases where users deny permission to access real data. I know last time I developed for iOS, it was Apple’s policy that apps cannot punish users or exit() the app in retaliation for them denying a permission. Apps must gracefully handle it and continue running. Also, and this was even longer ago, apps could not require users…

> Apps should be required to gracefully handle the cases where users deny permission to access real data Or else? You're suggesting an organizational solution to a technical problem. This can't possibly work. Fake data is the only practical solution to this, such that the app would see the permission as granted when it is not actually granted.

Or just not use the app…

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#268

Post by techwizrd »

I can see why this would be useful, but we already spend a lot of time chasing down data quality issues in AI/ML models and statistics as-is. We may be requesting permissions to workaround/correct GPS accuracy issues, comply with local regulations, or turn on a feature flag. For example, if you're on your home network I should hit HomeAssistant via a different route than if you're away from home. Or maybe local regulations require me to limit certain features, deny access, or confirm age. Or it may be necessary for fraud prevention, such as determining whether your account is being accessed from an unusual device or location.

I could see this leading to more data quality issues, legal liabilities, and difficult bugs. We should be able to deny access or provide coarser information (e.g., an age range rather than an age or a county/state rather than fine-grained GPS), and applications should be designed to handle those gracefully.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#269

Post by idle_zealot »

plorkyeran wrote: post #247
grishka wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an app developer, I do have a very real problem. I don't want Apple to impose their agenda on me and act like they own the relationship between me and my users. In particular, Apple should have no opinion on what kind of UGC my app contains if it's rated 18+. Apple should also stop protecting their own products by rejecting apps that cut into their market. But of course, Apple would do none of these things volunta…

No, you can't choose to only install apps exclusively from the app store on macOS because the macOS app store is a barren wasteland. The MAS makes it very clear that the only reason app developers put up with the iOS app store restrictions is because they have no choice.

The Mac is from a different time and has a very different user base than phones. By your argument the Play Store on Android makes it clear that the reason app developers put up with app stores is because of user patterns. On phones users are used to getting apps from the built-in store, so that's where they look for apps. Trying to sell an app via a website and APK download just doesn't work; users don't bite. There are alternative Android stores, most notably (outside of China) Amazon's and Samsungs. But both are wastelands, and devices with those stores typically also ship with the Play Store.

I don't think "app store competition" is going to be much of a factor for iOS post-DMA, but I do expect hobbyists and open source developers to congregate around AltStore or something and create a repository of free utility apps without having to pay Apple's developer fees.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#270

Post by rocho »

flutas wrote: post #100
Nereuxofficial wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

XPrivacy was incredibly cool. But on modern phones rooting and installing Xposed has either gotten massively more complicated or disabled ougright. GrapheneOS wasn't working with banking apps, Google broke rooting via Magisk multiple times on the Android Beta and at some point and i stopped bothering. Maybe GrapheneOS or similar Projects could do this

FWIW: Rooting seems fairly easy at this point in time , at least for pixel devices. Flash with magisk, install Universal Safetynet Fix ( https://github.com/Displax/safetynet-fix/ ) and you're passing safetynet / play integrity API. I haven't come across a single app that doesn't work due to root currently, but I limit my installed apps.

Last time I tried this I wasted many hours but couldn't make Google Wallet work. SafetyNet was passing but Wallet was still disallowing any card operations.
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