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When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

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Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#71

Post by ksala_ »

Aulig wrote: post #40
ryandrake wrote: post #27

I’m all for the “fake data” idea, but also: Apps should be required to gracefully handle the cases where users deny permission to access real data. I know last time I developed for iOS, it was Apple’s policy that apps cannot punish users or exit() the app in retaliation for them denying a permission. Apps must gracefully handle it and continue running. Also, and this was even longer ago, apps could not require users…

The guideline to be able to access apps without an account still exists, but the enforcing might have become lighter - or it's just the random fluctuations in review qualities we all know by now :)

Both of them still exists, but of course in some situations it doesn't make sense, so there is a lot of leeway depending on the reviewers. My experience is positive here, I can't remember the last time an app did not allow me to not have an account or manually provide data when it made sense.

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#dat...

  (iv) Access [...] Where possible, provide alternative solutions for users who don’t grant consent. For example, if a user declines to share Location, offer the ability to manually enter an address.  
  
  (v) Account Sign-In: If your app doesn’t include significant account-based features, let people use it without a login [...]

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#72

Post by theawless »

Samsung phones have a camera access and microphone access toggle.

Here's what I get when I turn it off:

``` Turn off Camera access? All apps will be blocked from using the camera. Apps will still work, but they will only be able to access an empty black screen. For example, you can still make and receive video calls, but the other person won't be able to see you. ```

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#73

Post by rcstank »

johnwheeler wrote: post #61

Unpopular opinion: No, it shouldn’t. That would be unethical. Aggregating cohorts of data to determine what you might or might not like to buy, and vigorously safeguarding that data since you know it will cost your business billions in market cap if it is exposed is far more reasonable. Yours is just a passive aggressive way to “ruin Facebook”. If you want to ruin Facebook, push for legislation. Do it the right way.

Legislation will just hurt the little guys trying to start up. Once so much red tape is involved, it’s very difficult for innovation and competition.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#74

Post by duxup »

ryandrake wrote: post #27

I’m all for the “fake data” idea, but also: Apps should be required to gracefully handle the cases where users deny permission to access real data. I know last time I developed for iOS, it was Apple’s policy that apps cannot punish users or exit() the app in retaliation for them denying a permission. Apps must gracefully handle it and continue running. Also, and this was even longer ago, apps could not require users…

> Apps must gracefully handle it and continue running.

Would this include… not doing anything? A notice that to use the app that you must grant access?

I hate apps that do that … BUT:

I am thinking of a logistics application that I wrote that requires location access. It effectively serves no purpose without location access.

It’s a small app that we offer to our clients. Not an app for the general public. But it is a situation where I don’t want the app to continue doing anything without location access.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#75

Post by freedomben »

EA-3167 wrote: post #62
mormegil wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> apps could not require users to have “an account” in order to run There is some big qualification missing or I don't understand what does that even mean. How could a banking app run without an account? An online game? The Twitter app nowadays? Dropbox/Nextcloud/...? Etc. Yeah, I agree that for a lot of apps, requiring a account is just a marketing gimmick, but I don't think such a general rule could work.

Perhaps the standard should be, "If you are required to have an account to use this service, on or off the app, then you can require it on the app." For context that would mean that to browse a site like Hacker News, you couldn't require an account, but to post you could. It covers things like Banks or Steam, etc. Would that be workable?

That seems like a great policy to me. I bought a guitar tuner app in the past and that's exactly and all it did: act as a tuner. But it then got acquired by a company that sells guitar lessons and other things, and they completely f-ed up the app and it requires an account and a subscription now if you want to tune your guitar. Fortunately there are other options in the Play Store, but I paid like $15 or $20 for it at some point. This tempts me at a side comment about why I hate automatic updates, but I'll refrain. Luckily it was Android so I was able to backup the APK before they ruined the app, and I sideload it now. Along with old Pocket Casts, Audible, and a couple of others.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#76

Post by blincoln »

I'd love to see this generalized to a toolkit in mobile and desktop/server operating systems. A year or two ago, I suggested calling something like it a "hellban" add-on, because my main use for it would be to improve the UX for software I can't really avoid by putting that software in an invisible cage. It would basically be a "swords into plowshares" version of a rootkit.

One could implement the same effects using Frida, but I imagined something more like a browser add-on repository, where users could submit modules for specific software/apps, or that would gatekeep device/OS-level functionality, instead of everyone having to create custom rules in a lower-level general-purpose toolkit like Frida.

There are lots of possibilities in this area for taking back some control of what's happening on one's devices by feeding procedurally-/ML-generated data when software tries to query sensors, GPS, camera/mic, etc. It would also often be useful for software testing, to make certain test cases more practical and reproducible by looping through recorded data.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#77

Post by freedomben »

duxup wrote: post #74
ryandrake wrote: post #27

I’m all for the “fake data” idea, but also: Apps should be required to gracefully handle the cases where users deny permission to access real data. I know last time I developed for iOS, it was Apple’s policy that apps cannot punish users or exit() the app in retaliation for them denying a permission. Apps must gracefully handle it and continue running. Also, and this was even longer ago, apps could not require users…

> Apps must gracefully handle it and continue running. Would this include… not doing anything? A notice that to use the app that you must grant access? I hate apps that do that … BUT: I am thinking of a logistics application that I wrote that requires location access. It effectively serves no purpose without location access. It’s a small app that we offer to our clients. Not an app for the general public. But it is a…

I would imagine they just mean "you can't crash or abruptly exit." Telling the user "please grant location access to use the app" and providing a button to try again is probably fine.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#78

Post by rcstank »

jasonmarks_ wrote: post #29

As an app developer I do not like this idea. You want to break the contract on what that permission is intended to be. ("Weather the Trip" road trip weather app for the U.S.)

If users see value from your product after providing real data, they won’t provide fake data. There’s no reason for certain apps to request for permissions to data that in turn provide no value to the product.

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#79

Post by crazygringo »

But why?

Just don't grant it permissions if you don't want to. And if it refuses to function without (for no good reason), then don't use the app because it's scammy.

Is there some other situation I'm missing here? Like is there some legitimate app people need to install that won't work if you don't grant it unneeded permissions?

Re: When an app asks for permissions, it should have a “feed fake data” option

#80

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

afavour wrote: post #10
easterncalculus wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an entirely UX problem then. You could bury the data faking deep in the settings, clearly explain what it does in plain language before enabling it as well as plainly telling the user onscreen that the application is being fed information for privacy reasons that they themselves enabled (and can easily disable). There is always someone who will end up enabling this erroneously, but it would provide a lot of v…

Right, locking the functionality off to only people with a deep understanding of it would work but it’s sidestepping the problem. People without understanding would still benefit from it so it’s a shame to lock them out of it and it’s harder to justify a feature only 0.5% of your user base will use.

Maybe just seed it with very sensible default settings like "send real data when asking for directions"?
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