Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

451–460 of 660 posts

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#451

Post by jurynulifcation »

dlkf wrote: post #359
jurynulifcation wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should your preference impact my right to my body and what I put into it? That is downright psychotic. You mean to tell me that if someone simply takes PCP near you and does not in any way harm you, you would like for their fundamental human privileges violently stripped from them? Now, if someone takes PCP and is then a public nuisance, that should be dealt with. But it should be dealt with because they are bein…

Your argument would apply equally to a drunk driver who didn’t happen to crash that night. The problem is that taking pcp significantly raises the probability the user will commit an act of violence, by which point it’s too late.

I don't believe this to be a necessary truth. Do you have any high quality studies that PCP, itself as a substance, does indeed raise the probability of someone doing something untoward? Might it not, in fact, be a problem with the people using PCP? In which case, why should it be restricted for people who would not become a nuisance? Further, why should people who do not become a problem on it have their rights taken away for the simple fact of imbibing?

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#452

Post by pc_edwin »

BossingAround wrote: post #415
pc_edwin wrote: post #406

[flagged]

> These people are barely human I wanted to engage with you until I got to this part. Jesus, this whole post is just on another level when it comes to hatred, misinformation ("the science support this", huhh?) and ridiculous ideas (e.g. sure, what could go wrong with forced institutionalisation?).

I'm guessing you've never had any experience with addicts, especially at the late stages.. Just google what addiction does to you, especially to your brain.

You can't have it both ways.

These are either people with a physiological disease or people who are wilfully and consciously causing public harm.

These ideas aren't ridiculous, we just happen to live in a society where there is a loud minority of people who believes tolerance is an unimpeachable value to uphold at all times with no exception.

This goes completely against reality and when we meet reality like the (disproportionate) crime situation, homelessness, drug addiction, welfare abuse, mass (economic) migrations etc. These people refuse to do anything or let others do anything effective.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#453

Post by jurynulifcation »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #309
jurynulifcation wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should your preference impact my right to my body and what I put into it? That is downright psychotic. You mean to tell me that if someone simply takes PCP near you and does not in any way harm you, you would like for their fundamental human privileges violently stripped from them? Now, if someone takes PCP and is then a public nuisance, that should be dealt with. But it should be dealt with because they are bein…

There exists a lag between becoming a public nuisance and being dealt with, within which damage can be incurred by those experiencing the nuisance. The probability and severity of the damage dictates whether or not society decides to allow it. As an uncontroversial example, maybe someone is well qualified to manipulate explosives in their garage. But society would still say the risk is not worth it, because by the ti…

Do you have any high-quality studies towards these relevant measures? Because your proposition is: "I think this man might be on PCP. He is otherwise doing nothing wrong. He should be imprisoned." That is ridiculous. A sober person is equally as capable of becoming a nuisance. So your actual proposition is to jail people on your presumptions, values, and opinions.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#454

Post by JTon »

robocat wrote: post #422
K0balt wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is misery by default, as a natural consequence of life itself. The never ending tyranny of the need to eat and avoid being eaten is the normal state of affairs. Honestly, if a person isn’t up for it, we need to stop trying to convince them to stay around and be miserable. Elective suicide should be a basic right, and drugs are one way out. We only create misery by “helping” people that don’t want hep. Criminaliz…

> Social drugs such as alcohol and thc are not so incompatible with society Alcohol is very unsociable - calling it social seems odd to me. Anecdotally alcohol seems pretty destructive to me. I am middle-aged so perhaps I have seen more of the deeper long-term destructive effects than you? New Zealanders generally have quite a problem with alcohol abuse.

It's both isn't it. It has to be. Have you ever been to a wedding or convention that is serving? Alcohol absolutely is a social lubricant

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#455

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

eimrine wrote: post #245
bolangi wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit like the matrix, wherever something good and helpful starts to develop anywhere, an agent in a green suit appears to put a stop to it.

Crabs in a bucket?

I don't think so. The crabs are peers who pull each other down. This is more like the industrial seafood conglomerate that dragnetted the seabed, put you in the bucket, and now wants to push the lid down tighter.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#456

Post by pc_edwin »

cowpig wrote: post #417
pc_edwin wrote: post #406

[flagged]

a common way that people reveal they doesn't understand a hard, complex problem is calling it simple and proposing some basic solution

Simple does not mean easy!

Societies have been dealing with this since the dawn of modern civilisations. ItS ridiculous for us, the most advanced human civilisation by far, to struggle with this. Its dumbfounding!

The solutions are simple, they are not easy because we have a small minority of *** who refuse do or let others do anything that would be actually EFFECTIVE.

I try my best to be civil in the comments but this is one issue that triggers me. ITS CRAZY! How can you guys not see these people are evil or deeply sick... USUALLY BOTH!

One of the most richest areas of the richest country in the world inhabited by the smartest people in the world SHOULD NOT have this issue. ITS ***NG CRAZY!!!

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#457

Post by yakubin »

pas wrote: post #320
kumarvvr wrote: post #284

Who would have thought mind altering, addictive substances available legally would lead to degeneration in society and transform productive people into high seeking bums ?

Caffeine and alcohol both available legally, both are mind altering and addictive. Did that lead to a degeneration? How come they transform some but not all people into bums? Is it like a virus, some are immune? Does the data for alcohol-addicts look like data for epidemics? Maybe the transformation happens due to some other reason?

> Caffeine and alcohol both available legally, both are mind altering and addictive. Did that lead to a degeneration?

Alcohol: absolutely? How many parents beat their children/spouses under the influence of alcohol, but never sober? How many kill others under the influence while driving?

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#458

Post by volkl48 »

leesalminen wrote: post #408
pmoriarty wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And that last bit - about a death sentence? That is only for a few addicts. A subset of addicts die." Not only that, but most drug users aren't addicts. To the general public, when they hear the words "drug user" they immediately equate that with "addict", and many can't even imagine that people could use drugs and not get addicted. But that's not true, as addicts are a small minority of drug users. Drug policy affe…

> addicts are a small minority of drug users. Do you have any reliable data to back up that claim? In my experience users who purport to not be addicts are indeed addicts in massive denial about their poor choices.

For one argument, consider the disparities between the # of people who've used a type of drug at some point in their life, vs the # that have used them in the past year, vs the # that have used them in the past month.

While some % of those are people who got help and quit in the past year, or people on the start of a downward spiral/addiction, plenty of those seem to just be infrequent users.

Unless the drug kills you so frequently/quickly that you can't sustain use for long or is rapidly gaining users for a new addiction crisis, the level of greater than monthly users should be higher if most of those infrequent users are going to become addicts.

https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/reports/rpt3...

You can further see that the spread of yearly vs monthly use is closer for substances typically considered more addictive and wider for those less thought to be. (not a lot of LSD addicts out there, relatively speaking).

-------

My experience is that a lot of people are very quiet about their drug use outside the environment where they dabble in it and never mention it at all in company where they're uncertain about how it'll be viewed, so I also suspect that you may not recognize most of those people as people who'd use drugs at all.

I'm a big live music person and being around people using drugs somewhat comes with the territory, especially festival-type environments. But most of the people I've met at those things don't do much of those substances otherwise aside from possibly weed. They've got their once or twice a year time of hitting up the party drugs for their weekend of fun + music, but that's it.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#459

Post by bannedbybros »

K0balt wrote: post #371
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tent cities don't exist solely in places without access to housing "Access to housing" isn't enough. You might have "access" to health care but unable to afford it. You need housing as a right - even without payment - alongside enough adequate housing for everyone. And allow folks to do things in their own home. If they cannot do it at their home with other people, the person in question does not have adequate housin…

Life is misery by default, as a natural consequence of life itself. The never ending tyranny of the need to eat and avoid being eaten is the normal state of affairs. Honestly, if a person isn’t up for it, we need to stop trying to convince them to stay around and be miserable. Elective suicide should be a basic right, and drugs are one way out. We only create misery by “helping” people that don’t want hep. Criminaliz…

[dead]

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#460

Post by seandoe »

Legalize possession of personal quantities of all drugs. Highly regulate the sale and production of drugs -- limiting sale to personal possession amounts, tracking sales to prevent store hopping. Highly regulate where drugs can be used -- not in public, on the streets. Use tax money strictly for rehab treatment, enforcing regulation, drug research, building safe injection houses, etc. You can't just decriminalize drugs, you have to control the production and sale. This ensures quality control and gives social workers direct access to drug users, not to mention removing the black market and the hell that comes with it.
Post reply on HN