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Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

factoryfactoryfactory.net

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Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#301

Post by noobermin »

adrianmsmith wrote: post #244
epiccoleman wrote: post #4

The worst part of this kind of thing is that young carpenters honestly, really, truly, just need to learn to use a hammer. They can't even conceive of the problems that are being solved by the hammer factory, let alone the factory factory. But in the world of the factory factory factory, the apprentice carpenter (who really just wanted to drive a few nails) is now faced with trying to understand the gargantuan comple…

> But in the world of the factory factory factory, the apprentice carpenter (who really just wanted to drive a few nails) is now faced with trying to understand the gargantuan complexity of the factory factory factory. Sometimes I wonder if that's the point of all this complexity. (EDIT: I mean really excessive complexity as alluded to in the article with factory factory factories, or 100 microservices all in differe…

Are you sure it isn't their employer's interest? What if the company sells training or licenses for the framework? Then it definitely is in their interest. There are obvious examples out there.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#302

Post by Aeolun »

adrianmsmith wrote: post #244
epiccoleman wrote: post #4

The worst part of this kind of thing is that young carpenters honestly, really, truly, just need to learn to use a hammer. They can't even conceive of the problems that are being solved by the hammer factory, let alone the factory factory. But in the world of the factory factory factory, the apprentice carpenter (who really just wanted to drive a few nails) is now faced with trying to understand the gargantuan comple…

> But in the world of the factory factory factory, the apprentice carpenter (who really just wanted to drive a few nails) is now faced with trying to understand the gargantuan complexity of the factory factory factory. Sometimes I wonder if that's the point of all this complexity. (EDIT: I mean really excessive complexity as alluded to in the article with factory factory factories, or 100 microservices all in differe…

No, I choose the technology and/or fundamentals that the juniors will have to learn if they want to level up as a developer.

The best way to get them to work the right way is to use a framework that incentivizes it. If doing things wrong is made harder, and doing things right is made easy, everyone wins.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#304

Post by tough »

If you pick enough frameworks you can learn how the underlying system works.

All web frameworks are the same to me, doesn't really matter if they're python, javascript, php, or whatever tbh.

req/res body cookies that's it

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#305

Post by Aeolun »

sanitycheck wrote: post #282
adrianmsmith wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in the world of the factory factory factory, the apprentice carpenter (who really just wanted to drive a few nails) is now faced with trying to understand the gargantuan complexity of the factory factory factory. Sometimes I wonder if that's the point of all this complexity. (EDIT: I mean really excessive complexity as alluded to in the article with factory factory factories, or 100 microservices all in differe…

I'm even more cynical than you. The senior's (personal) objective is to add fashionable buzzwords to the resume/CV so in a year they can hop to another company and get paid 20% more. You get a pay rise and a promotion a lot quicker by changing jobs than sticking around. No Kubernetes experience? Just unnecessarily add Kubernetes to your current project. Now look for that Kubernetes job! The worst thing is, this is to…

I dunno, I just want an environment in which I can deliver the features biz requests without fear or fuzz.

Right now it’s just firefighting every second of the day.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#307

Post by Aeolun »

88913527 wrote: post #28
epiccoleman wrote: post #4

The worst part of this kind of thing is that young carpenters honestly, really, truly, just need to learn to use a hammer. They can't even conceive of the problems that are being solved by the hammer factory, let alone the factory factory. But in the world of the factory factory factory, the apprentice carpenter (who really just wanted to drive a few nails) is now faced with trying to understand the gargantuan comple…

Everyone needs to learn to do calculus by hand before advancing to the calculator. People picking up frameworks without fundamental understanding is a shockingly common fallacy.

I think it can go either way. Finding out frameworks aren’t perfect is what you do when you’ve exhausted all the simple projects.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#308

Post by Aeolun »

swores wrote: post #251
Aeolun wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a fairly high confidence it’s normally distributed. Of course me having confidence doesn’t really mean anything, but I’ll work off that assumption anyway.

I think you're probably right, was just pointing out that the definition doesn't mean that has to be the case :)

Fair enough

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#309

Post by tough »

mo_42 wrote: post #260
eternityforest wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an art to translating whatever idea you have into large building blocks rather that coding it from small primitives. Actually knowing how to code is important, but so is knowing how to take a problem and implement it without ever doing anything the framework authors didn't think of. You might need a nasty hack like exporting a bitmap to a ramdisk and then importing it again to read a pixel value, to avoid me…

> It's almost like the idea that language shapes how you think. Frameworks are kind of like subsets or dialects of programming languages. If you actually know the framework well, you can often do stuff that seems like it would need low level control, in an idiomatic way that doesn't fight the framework. I think the analogy does not quite fit. A framework is certainly not a dialect. For me a dialect is a variant of th…

A framework is not a dialect, but a business context specific language.

You may re-use normal english words to have a new meaning. a bit like how companies like to have infinite initial acronym's for everything that nobody ever will understand outside the company.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#310

Post by xmcqdpt2 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #270
josephg wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senior here. I think this is an overly cynical take. You want to pick a set of tools which will help you get the job at hand done most effectively. It’s often easier and cheaper to hire or train a team to use a framework or library than it is to reimplement the functionality that library provides from scratch. Eg, if I was building a big single page app, I’d rather use react than reimplement react’s functionality, ba…

"Libraries and frameworks rarely tell you when they’re buggy messes." GitHub Issues usually gives you a good insight, into what problems exists and whether they get fixed, or not. (as a senior, you likely know, but others reading this, maybe not)

Github Issues is full of confounding factors though. Lots of Issues mean that there are bugs but all software has bugs. It also means that there lots of users and that users feel that raising an issue is a good way to get something fixed, which is good!

IMO the better metric is how many outstanding unmerged pull requests exist. If there are too many this means that bugs exists and they aren't getting fixed.

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