Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts • Hacker News Board

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#311

Post by throwawaylinux » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:42 AM UTC

bandrami wrote: post #287

throwawaylinux wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But then Ronald Reagan (as governor of california) cut state mental illness funding. > Now clearly mentally ill people - who needed help - were turned away unless they were clearly "a danger to themselves and others". It's been 50 years between then and now, so... why has no other politician increased it if the funding cut was the problem?

Because of a ballot initiative that essentially made it impossible to raise taxes.

That is not the reason that spending on mental illness can not be increased.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#312

Post by jdefr89 » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:42 AM UTC

I mean.. I live in Philadelphia. Drugs aren’t legal here and our issues with dangerous drugs far exceed Portugal’s… So, how is criminalizing going to help again? Maybe the only issue is deeper? Depression is at an all time high. People are burned out since covid, this is bound to happen everywhere..

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#313

Post by pas » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:42 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #197

“When you first back off enforcement, there are not many people walking over the line that you’ve removed. And the public think it’s working really well. Then word gets out that there’s an open market, limits to penalties, and you start drawing in more drug users. Then you’ve got a more stable drug culture, and, frankly, it doesn’t look as good anymore.” There's the Singapore solution. "Singapore executes man for tra…

SEA countries regularly execute drug mules. Does it work? Do they have drug problems? Is there any reliable data at all? How big is the deterrence effect?

Take the recent cases of human trafficking through the EU border (the Serbian-Hungarian in particular), over the past years about 600 traffickers were picked up by police and sentenced to so and so years in prison. And ... did it do anything to the trafficking numbers? Unlikely, because these low-level mules are also desperate individuals, not the ones organizing things and collecting the money.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#314

Post by WeylandYutani » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:43 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #193

bboygravity wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portuguese politicians are doing the same with the public healthcare system there (deliberately underfunding it to be able to claim that it "failed"). They want to follow the "good" example of the US, like most other EU member states are now doing.

While public healthcare is still quite ok in Portugal, anyone that actually wants to be treated in time, and not be stuck in waiting lists actually goes to a private doctor, or clinic. Hence why having private insurance as part of the job benefits is widely appreciated, unless one is a public employee with nice health packages like ADSE. I am approaching 50 now, and seldom ever had a family doctor for example. Howeve…

People with private insurance skip the line. You're literally condemning a poor person to suffer more. Congratulations.

Doctors triage based on medical needs not your social status or financial wealth in the Netherlands. It's one of those things that ethically sets this country above others and I hope it never changes.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#315

Post by Etheryte » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:43 AM UTC

jhoechtl wrote: post #306

jabradoodle wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first is a hand wavey opinion, the second is basically an anecdote and the third relates to a very different implementation of decriminalisation than Portugal's.

> and giving an addict 4 walls and privacy is a death sentence. sounds very plausible, where is the fallacy?

Many things sound plausible without having any real connection to reality, we shouldn't rely on trust-me-bro when we're talking about people's lives.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#316

Post by prepend » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:52 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #250

m463 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same sort of thing happened with mental illness in california, probably a leading cause of homelessness problems. Years ago, the law was changed to allow mentally-ill but benign or even non-ill people to escape the "snake pits", mental institutions that kept people incarcerated and drugged. This allowed lots of people to recover. But then Ronald Reagan (as governor of california) cut state mental illness funding. Now…

And how long has it been that Reagan is no longer the governor and why hasn't funding been restored?

Reagan was governor from 1967-1975. Clearly he changed this so permanently that it’s impossible for anyone to fix in 45 years.

I suppose that is an impressive feat to do something that no other governors can fix.

Or perhaps they don’t want to fix it since they can just blame Reagan and then pretend it’s unsolvable.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#317

Post by AzzieElbab » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:54 AM UTC

m463 wrote: post #77

virgildotcodes wrote: post #7

Talk about burying the lede, 11 years ago they privatized their drug oversight operation and cut funding by over 80%. Gee, I wonder if that could have an impact? > After years of economic crisis, Portugal decentralized its drug oversight operation in 2012. A funding drop from 76 million euros ($82.7 million) to 16 million euros ($17.4 million) forced Portugal’s main institution to outsource work previously done by th…

Same sort of thing happened with mental illness in california, probably a leading cause of homelessness problems. Years ago, the law was changed to allow mentally-ill but benign or even non-ill people to escape the "snake pits", mental institutions that kept people incarcerated and drugged. This allowed lots of people to recover. But then Ronald Reagan (as governor of california) cut state mental illness funding. Now…

“One flew over the cuckoo's nest” - back in the days, the state went a bit overboard with forced mental care, and there was a lot of political pressure to dismantle the system.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#318

Post by Broken_Hippo » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:56 AM UTC

comfortabledoug wrote: post #266

virgildotcodes wrote: post #7

Talk about burying the lede, 11 years ago they privatized their drug oversight operation and cut funding by over 80%. Gee, I wonder if that could have an impact? > After years of economic crisis, Portugal decentralized its drug oversight operation in 2012. A funding drop from 76 million euros ($82.7 million) to 16 million euros ($17.4 million) forced Portugal’s main institution to outsource work previously done by th…

What about the other quotes from the article that have nothing to do with funding... > “When you first back off enforcement, there are not many people walking over the line that you’ve removed. And the public think it’s working really well,” said Keith Humphreys, former senior drug policy adviser in the Obama administration and a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University. “Then word gets out that there’s an open…

Tent cities don't exist solely in places without access to housing

"Access to housing" isn't enough. You might have "access" to health care but unable to afford it. You need housing as a right - even without payment - alongside enough adequate housing for everyone. And allow folks to do things in their own home. If they cannot do it at their home with other people, the person in question does not have adequate housing.

And that last bit - about a death sentence? That is only for a few addicts. A subset of addicts die.

If you have to get clean to get housing, housing is inadequate. I'd probably not go for rehab if I were homeless: I'd just have to be sober for the misery.

And that's what we give people. That's what we are offering. Various forms of misery.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#319

Post by runeks » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:58 AM UTC

Decriminalization is only marginally better than criminalization since it's still impossible to regulate the sellers.

It's better because at least it stops criminalizing addicts, but it still enables shady people to profit from and attract new users.

Please just allow pharmacies to sell the drugs in boring packages without any advertisement whatsoever.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#320

Post by pas » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 11:03 AM UTC

kumarvvr wrote: post #284

Who would have thought mind altering, addictive substances available legally would lead to degeneration in society and transform productive people into high seeking bums ?

Caffeine and alcohol both available legally, both are mind altering and addictive. Did that lead to a degeneration? How come they transform some but not all people into bums?

Is it like a virus, some are immune? Does the data for alcohol-addicts look like data for epidemics?

Maybe the transformation happens due to some other reason?