Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts • Hacker News Board

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#301

Post by jabradoodle » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:20 AM UTC

comfortabledoug wrote: post #266

virgildotcodes wrote: post #7

Talk about burying the lede, 11 years ago they privatized their drug oversight operation and cut funding by over 80%. Gee, I wonder if that could have an impact? > After years of economic crisis, Portugal decentralized its drug oversight operation in 2012. A funding drop from 76 million euros ($82.7 million) to 16 million euros ($17.4 million) forced Portugal’s main institution to outsource work previously done by th…

What about the other quotes from the article that have nothing to do with funding... > “When you first back off enforcement, there are not many people walking over the line that you’ve removed. And the public think it’s working really well,” said Keith Humphreys, former senior drug policy adviser in the Obama administration and a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University. “Then word gets out that there’s an open…

The first is a hand wavey opinion, the second is basically an anecdote and the third relates to a very different implementation of decriminalisation than Portugal's.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#302

Post by mcpackieh » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:26 AM UTC

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #292

mcpackieh wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism is bad because communists think the ends justify the means and (as you are demonstrating) shamelessly excuse tens of millions of murders (proving they've learned nothing and will do it again when given the chance.)

I don't think communists "think the ends justify the means" any more than capitalists do, probably less if anything.

We've got a communist in this thread being dismissive of 30 million dead. Communism is morally an intellectually bankrupt. It's an ideology for the bitter and depraved.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#303

Post by ranting-moth » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:34 AM UTC

I wonder why they kept it legal to be either consuming drugs or be drugged in public?

In may countries you get thrown in the slammer for drinking or being a drunk nuisance in public. Even if you're just outside the pub where you legally consumed alcohol.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#304

Post by cheekibreeki2 » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:36 AM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #296

listenallyall wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea about the history of California's mental-illness funding, so I have no idea if your comment is accurate and Reagan is actually the bad guy (although I suspect it's more complicated). However, California has run massive surpluses lately: The average ending balance from 2006 through the 2019-20 fiscal year was a surplus of about $2.8 billion; for 2020 through 2022-23 it was more than $37.5 billion. So wh…

I would not want my state to establish funding because then it would become other states’ dumping grounds.

California is in a weird place due to the weather, which almost guarantees the self dumping of people living outdoors. I'd be curious to see how this factors into these equations. Much of Europe gets pretty cold in winter.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#305

Post by withinboredom » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:37 AM UTC

yard2010 wrote: post #281

raverbashing wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how long has it been that Reagan is no longer the governor and why hasn't funding been restored?

I'm afraid that's not how bureaucracy works.

Then maybe it’s time to replace it with something that works.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#306

Post by jhoechtl » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:37 AM UTC

jabradoodle wrote: post #301

comfortabledoug wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the other quotes from the article that have nothing to do with funding... > “When you first back off enforcement, there are not many people walking over the line that you’ve removed. And the public think it’s working really well,” said Keith Humphreys, former senior drug policy adviser in the Obama administration and a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University. “Then word gets out that there’s an open…

The first is a hand wavey opinion, the second is basically an anecdote and the third relates to a very different implementation of decriminalisation than Portugal's.

> and giving an addict 4 walls and privacy is a death sentence.

sounds very plausible, where is the fallacy?

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#307

Post by pas » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:37 AM UTC

Kretinsky wrote: post #65

An interesting part of the article: "state-funded nongovernmental organizations that have largely taken over responding to the people with addiction seem less concerned with treatment than affirming that lifetime drug use should be seen as a human right." It's almost like if NGOs that live off the existence of drug abuse didn't want to kill the cash cow. That's another case of why such public services shouldn't be ex…

The simple fact that neither them nor the police have enough funds/manpower/skills to directly rehabilitate addicts means that they do the bare minimum depending on what they see is their role.

When using is a crime then police does it job by picking up addicts and incarcerating them. (Which might be seen as an extreme form of stochastic harm reduction, with overall very harmful externalities.) When it's not, then these needle exchanges do probabilistic prevention of specific deadly circumstances.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#308

Post by jabradoodle » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:39 AM UTC

oneshtein wrote: post #156

alistairSH wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Portugal. When they fully funded their rehab and social service program, the system worked. Then they reduced funding and seem surprised the programs don’t work any more.

Quote from the article: > A newly released national survey suggests the percent of adults who have used illicit drugs increased to 12.8 percent in 2022, up from 7.8 in 2001 So, No.

It isn't surprising that more people admit to doing something now it isn't illegal.

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

#309

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:39 AM UTC

jurynulifcation wrote: post #98

throwawa14223 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of people I want consuming recreational PCP around me is 0.

Why should your preference impact my right to my body and what I put into it? That is downright psychotic. You mean to tell me that if someone simply takes PCP near you and does not in any way harm you, you would like for their fundamental human privileges violently stripped from them? Now, if someone takes PCP and is then a public nuisance, that should be dealt with. But it should be dealt with because they are bein…

There exists a lag between becoming a public nuisance and being dealt with, within which damage can be incurred by those experiencing the nuisance. The probability and severity of the damage dictates whether or not society decides to allow it.

As an uncontroversial example, maybe someone is well qualified to manipulate explosives in their garage. But society would still say the risk is not worth it, because by the time the “nuisance” is dealt with, there would be unacceptable losses.

The relevant measures to be discussed are what is the probability of someone using PCP and not being a nuisance, and if they did use PCP, what severity would the nuisance be?

Re: Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts

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Post by galfarragem » Sat, Jul 08, 2023, 10:42 AM UTC

It's so annoying to read over and over this BS about the success of Portugal's old policies on drugs. It is blatantly false.

I grew up in a top drug spot in Portugal. Things were bad, really bad. I would say that worse was impossible, every extended family had drug problems. After the early 90's peak, slowly it got better, addicts' younger brothers and neighbors had real examples. Doing drugs was not "cool" anymore. That generation was eradicated from my home town (many died by counterfeit drugs or overdose, the rest after jail and detoxs eventually moved somewhere else to start over).

Politicians, as always, take positive results as their own but their influence here was negligible. The only positive policy was free syringe exchange. It certainly had a positive impact on AIDS control. Now drugs are coming back (not nearly as bad as once was). Younger generations didn't witness the human degradation as my generation did. It's a cycle.