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Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
231–240 of 407 posts
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#232My enlightened centrist take on this is that some frameworks are good, meanwhile some frameworks are bad :)
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
And interestingly, your argument also falls apart in the same way as the framework argument. It might make the average developer more productive on an average project. But most projects are not average, and neither are most developers. Everyone has some unique combination of strengths, just like every project has special cases that don’t fit within the box of a framework. A framework is great if you don’t know much a…
> But most projects are not average I call bullshit. Most projects are average by definition. Otherwise that wouldn’t be the average.
You could argue that it's specifically true for projects, but the definition of average absolutely doesn't require that.
If for example you had 100 projects were 50 of them were built by expert teams who poured love into their work, and 50 were made by 12 year olds who spent one day on their projects before giving up, the "average" quality of the 100 would be a long way from either the great or the shit products.
Likewise if a group of ten people has five CEOs earning a million a year, and five waiters earning minimum wage including tips, none of the ten are "by definition" earning half a million a year.
Of course in my data sets there is a kind of "normal distribution" such that most objects are near the mean, but that needs to be found out not assumed.
I have no idea how many tech products are near the mean as opposed to near one extreme or the other, and doubt anyone could guess without bias and without actually researching the question.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everyone needs to learn to do calculus by hand before advancing to the calculator. People picking up frameworks without fundamental understanding is a shockingly common fallacy.
That's the reason why CS classes and degrees exist. Or at least it should be. No company will pay you for several years just to learn complexity theory, write sorting algorithms, study schedulers, rewrite UNIX tools, understand hardware architectures, etc... They want you to be productive right away, and the shortest path is just to follow recipes with the latest framework. That's the point of education, universities…
In germany you are expected to go on a three year apprenticeship when you want to do a job which needs practical skills.
You work part time at a company and go part time to school, combined thats between 35 and 40 hours a week. You don't get paid that much during that time, but if someone pays for your room it's enough.
Without going that route you literally don't get a full paid job.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's the reason why CS classes and degrees exist. Or at least it should be. No company will pay you for several years just to learn complexity theory, write sorting algorithms, study schedulers, rewrite UNIX tools, understand hardware architectures, etc... They want you to be productive right away, and the shortest path is just to follow recipes with the latest framework. That's the point of education, universities…
"No company will pay you for several years just to learn" No, they never did. But to stay with the hammer metapher - young carpenters would indeed learn on the job, how to use a hammer and all the other tools. But they would not get the same pay (or even no pay and just food and housing). In general it used to be way more common, that companies invested in peoples learning, expecting payoff much later. But with high…
> But with high mobility nowdays, they seldom think it is worth it anymore. You teach and then they thank you and move on.
You mean you tell them you will teach them, require them to have the skills to begin with anyways, work them like any other employee but with a fraction of the cost promising them full employment at the end, and at the end thank them and tell them to move on?
(keeping the first person tone of your post)
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
does what you’re making matter to people or not? It’s like that no matter what you’re doing. Y’all can sit around here and discuss, “what is a software architect” all you want.
Reminds me of the architect we have at work. By the time he was done formalizing what needs to be done and philosophizing about the best approach (while actively trying to prevent the engineers from hacking away), the programmers and hardware engineers delivered a production prototype that works just fine and that people want to buy.
I wouldn't say that the outcome is necessarily the same all the time, but the getting-nothing-of-any-value-done architect seems to be a common occurrence. We had one that by proxy stopped development on at least 3 projects I was supposed to be involved in because people wanted to make him part of the process, despite me having 10 or so years more experience and an evident track record of successfully greenfielding projects versus his 0. He ended up being literally the only person ever at our company to effectively get demoted.
Previously the same company had hired one of my previous coworkers as a "software/solutions architect" and he had basically the same trajectory but with him at least I suspect he was just burned out. With that said, seeing someone has the title "Software Architect" is definitely a signal to pay attention to whether this person is even remotely competent and/or produces anything of value. If they give off the impression that they are just supposed to hand off designs to someone else to implement you know you have a complete dud and a moron on your hands.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
I see a lot of people online advising against taking CS degrees (in europe, where it's not economically impossible to study). They argue that bootcamps and quick courses are enough, or that chatgpt exists now so programming is a dead profession. I disagree, I think I've had a lot of use from having had education… but I might be biased. But I've had to explain things occasionally.
The carpenter doesn't need a degree. The architect and structural engineer do. If you plan to be a programmer all your life, and a journey-man one at that, then feel free to learn-programming-in-21-days. If you're planning a career in software, then I think understanding fundamentals (database normalisation, the Order of a solution, the ideas of Coupling and Uncoupling, memory usage versus performance, the impact of…
You have such an idyllic view of the college environment. My experience was struggling to motivate my teammates to do anything beyond the minimum, and an endless barrage of "will this be on the exam?" questions during class.
Looking back it's no wonder I am a self-learner now.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
"No company will pay you for several years just to learn" No, they never did. But to stay with the hammer metapher - young carpenters would indeed learn on the job, how to use a hammer and all the other tools. But they would not get the same pay (or even no pay and just food and housing). In general it used to be way more common, that companies invested in peoples learning, expecting payoff much later. But with high…
> But with high mobility nowdays, they seldom think it is worth it anymore. You teach and then they thank you and move on. You mean you tell them you will teach them, require them to have the skills to begin with anyways, work them like any other employee but with a fraction of the cost promising them full employment at the end, and at the end thank them and tell them to move on? (keeping the first person tone of you…
First person: I, me, us
Second person: You
That's usually called perspective, not tone.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
"No company will pay you for several years just to learn" No, they never did. But to stay with the hammer metapher - young carpenters would indeed learn on the job, how to use a hammer and all the other tools. But they would not get the same pay (or even no pay and just food and housing). In general it used to be way more common, that companies invested in peoples learning, expecting payoff much later. But with high…
> But with high mobility nowdays, they seldom think it is worth it anymore. You teach and then they thank you and move on. You mean you tell them you will teach them, require them to have the skills to begin with anyways, work them like any other employee but with a fraction of the cost promising them full employment at the end, and at the end thank them and tell them to move on? (keeping the first person tone of you…
Yes, something like that.
On the other hand young workers usualy greatly overestimate their impact on getting things done and the work required to check their work. (I know I was like that)
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#2407071856621